Days Until Maturity?

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TomHillbilly
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Days Until Maturity?

#1

Post: # 37022Unread post TomHillbilly
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:04 pm

This is a tricky subject. I'm sure some of you have had "acclaimed" 62 day tomatoes to mature at the same time one of your favored 76 day varieties did. How can that be? There was supposed to be a 2 weeks difference? I don't put much stock in the way we rate tomato maturity in America. Many of the "so called" ultra early varieties lay claims to producing ripened tomatoes in less than 54 days. I've always found those claims to be a sales gimmick. I've grown many of those ultra early varieties. I always stick one of my common early cherry varieties in the ground at the same time. As of yet, not a single ultra early variety has produced a ripe tomato faster than Sweet Million, or Sunsugar. Both of which-- are a 72 day cherry tomato. If the claims are that the variety will be 18 days faster. And is in fact, is 5 days slower? That is over 3 weeks of discrepancy in false advertising claims. The numbers I use are pretty normal findings for me in zone 6 and 7. Super early tomato varieties are smaller tomatoes. Its only fair they be tested against smaller tomatoes.
 Our method of maturity claims opens a host of variables that are invited into the mix of tabulation. The maturity date starts from the day a plant is set in the ground. If I set my plants in the ground when they are 8 inches tall. And my friend likes to let his plants get knee high. Will our plants mature the same day?  The very method in which maturity dates are figured, invites false advertising claims. Some countries figure maturity date from the day the seed is sown. A few figure maturity dates from the day a 2 leaf seedling pops up. I've imported their seeds. While there is no perfect way of tabulating the maturity dates. I will tell you point blank! Their maturity date claims were well within the margin of acceptance. Our maturity date is whatever the breeder elects to dream up. Many of those super early varieties are golf ball sized bland tasting tomatoes. So a sales gimmick is needed. If you doubt me--- just stick one of your old favored early cherry tomatoes in the same wave with the ultra earlies. See which plants you pick from first.    

lee53011
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#2

Post: # 37024Unread post lee53011
Mon Dec 28, 2020 5:13 pm

I do succesive planting for almost everything in my garden. So when I plan, I have to know when one crop is coming out, so I can calculate what crop can go in next and still have time to mature before frost. Yes, days to maturity are wildly innacurate! The only thing that works for me, is to look back at my garden journal to see how long it actually took in prior years. Even that is only a more educated guess, since the weather is what determines almost everything. Warmer, wetter probably means faster growth. Dryer colder, slower growth. I keep trying though!
Last edited by lee53011 on Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bower
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#3

Post: # 37085Unread post bower
Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:54 pm

I agree with you 100%, days from seed to maturity is a much more accurate way to measure it. Those DTM figures have never made sense nor played out for me. Maturity dates can certainly vary depending on how the plant is treated, how soon you transplant, soil and weather conditions etc. But you still get a way better estimate of maturity based on days from seed, IMO. Good point!
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AKgardener
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#4

Post: # 37122Unread post AKgardener
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:19 pm

I grew all early tomatoes last year none of them were early in fact most of them didn’t get tomatoes until the end of August and I started all of them in February.

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Tormato
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#5

Post: # 37134Unread post Tormato
Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:50 pm

I gauge DTM from the date sown. I attempt to transplant 28 days from sowing. SunGold has been the most consistent, 58 or 59 DTM from transplant, 86 or 87 days from sowing. every year except one. Cole was my earliest tomato, about 73 DTM from sowing, 45 from transplanting, if I remember correctly. Nearly all "mid-season" varieties come in at 72 to 79 days for me, under normal weather conditions. Extreme weather conditions will give a variance of about 10 days. If all of the flowers on the first truss fall off, all bets are off.

I once had a leftover tomato plant, having nowhere to plant it until I started pulling early veggie plants. I transplanted it after about 75 days. It had no DTM, as it didn't produce a single tomato.

TomHillbilly
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#6

Post: # 37143Unread post TomHillbilly
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:49 pm

AKgardener-----Now that is a huge delay in production. But it is one I've heard and seen several times. I have a UNEDUCATED GUESSING theory, as to how that can happen. Right or wrong, this is just a belief of mine. So try not to laugh. LOL. 
Garden vegetable and fruits' sole purpose is to reproduce itself. Feeding us is never a priority of any plant. A plant can be so happy with its soil, and surroundings, it feels no need to reproduce seeds. I have some friends that invest heavy in enriching their garden soil. They grow unbelievable huge plants. And in the end, they get big productions. We often plant the same day. My weaker smaller plants will always produce weeks ahead of theirs. Because my plants feel the pressure of pending doom. LOL... My plants aren't as happy as theirs. This is really magnified in half runner beans. Our seed comes from the same store, and is planted the same week. I'll be picking weeks before them. And they will be picking weeks after mine is gone. I'm not saying get lazy, and cheap on soil investments. I'm saying a little less rich soil--makes plants produce quicker. 

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MrBig46
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#7

Post: # 37174Unread post MrBig46
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:47 am

If I remember correctly, Carolyn wrote that DTM is the number of days from pollination of a flower to the moment when the flower is ripe tomato. Grown outdoors, in optimal weather. This is a convention and we should stick to it. If not, then it is completely useless to list any days. The time of growing seedlings does not count, because the conditions for pre-cultivation are different. Someone grows a flowering seedling in 40 days, another, like me, in 60 days.
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AKgardener
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#8

Post: # 37359Unread post AKgardener
Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:24 pm

[mention]TomHillbilly[/mention] I feel the pain of slow production but fear I have my garden redone professionally in October haha and having them put in what they say it the best top soil so let’s see if you therory works cause I’m dying to get in there and really see the work I have not yet got to appreciate it yes since it snowed while they did it. Here is to a better green thumb
Last edited by AKgardener on Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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AKgardener
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#9

Post: # 37360Unread post AKgardener
Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:25 pm

[mention]TomHillbilly[/mention] I feel the pain of slow production but fear not I have my garden redone professionally in October haha and having them put in what they say it the best top soil so let’s see if you therory works cause I’m dying to get in there and really see the work I have not yet got to appreciate it yes since it snowed while they did it. Here is to a better green thumb

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Amateurinawe
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#10

Post: # 37372Unread post Amateurinawe
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:39 am

Would the DTM definition apply equally to fruit as it does to root or braccia type crops ? I've broken down my spreadsheet into milestone such as germination, transplant, flowering, fruit set and ripening(seeding). I guess each stage can have multiple variations based on environmental conditions so only use DTM on the packets as a relative marker. The seed planting guides seem a bit like the weather man reports, a bit of unsettled weather round about here (vaguely sweeps a hand across the weather map).
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Rockoe10
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#11

Post: # 37478Unread post Rockoe10
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:37 am

MrBig46 wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:47 am If I remember correctly, Carolyn wrote that DTM is the number of days from pollination of a flower to the moment when the flower is ripe tomato. Grown outdoors, in optimal weather. This is a convention and we should stick to it. If not, then it is completely useless to list any days. The time of growing seedlings does not count, because the conditions for pre-cultivation are different. Someone grows a flowering seedling in 40 days, another, like me, in 60 days.
Vladimír
I would have to agree. I was coming to this conclusion as i was reading the above posts. "Why not just time how long it takes to produce a ripe fruit from a flower"?
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Rob, ZONE 6A with 170 days between frost dates, Western Pennsylvania

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AKgardener
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#12

Post: # 37695Unread post AKgardener
Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:25 pm

I’ve decided not to go by the DTM this year all because it’s not always accurate I’m just gonna start counting from when I have flowers as well.

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Tormato
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#13

Post: # 37697Unread post Tormato
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:04 pm

DTM from flowering may not make sense. What if you had a variety ripen 39 days from flowering, but it took 61 days to flower. And then you had a variety ripen 40 days from flowering, but it took 40 days to flower. Which is earlier?

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Rockoe10
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#14

Post: # 37713Unread post Rockoe10
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:14 pm

Its tough to say, i suppose. Perhaps DTR ("Days to Ripen") would be a better name for it. And would be a completely separate statistic to track.

*Putting that in my Spread Sheet*

PS
This would be an important stat for anyone who starts their plants early. You can grow it inside for 3 months before the season starts and then put cuttings that are ready to bloom outside when it's warm again. Its already "Mature". You just need to know how long those tiny buds will take to be ripe enough to pick.

PSS
Anther name maybe. Blossom to Ripe (BTR)
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Rob, ZONE 6A with 170 days between frost dates, Western Pennsylvania

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MrBig46
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#15

Post: # 37809Unread post MrBig46
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:26 am

Each of us can create our own system of how long it takes for a tomato to ripen. But I don't understand why. DTM is a recognized system on your side of the Atlantic and is used by all seed companies. It is really defined from pollination of the testicle into a ripe tomato. The tomato is self-pollinating and the testicle is normally pollinated on the first day of flower opening. Everyone who crosses tomatoes knows this and therefore removes pollen sticks before the flower develops. The second thing is to judge when a tomato is really consumingly ripe. We each have a different taste and so we consume it to different degrees of maturity. But no system will remove that. There is one more important thing. No individual or small group will change anything about how the current DTM system will be generally perceived. One more note. The mother gives birth in nine months plus or minus a few days. This is generally shared value that no one disputes. DTM is equivalent.
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Rockoe10
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#16

Post: # 37819Unread post Rockoe10
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:47 am

MrBig46 wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:26 am ... It is really defined from pollination of the testicle into a ripe tomato.
Vladimír
I agree with this statement. Except that's not how the seed companies, at least around me, determine DTM. This is why it's such a confusing and convoluted subject.
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Rob, ZONE 6A with 170 days between frost dates, Western Pennsylvania

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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#17

Post: # 37824Unread post farmersteve
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:47 am

The DTM scale is rife with problems. Fruit from a variety of plants ripen at different speeds depending on a lot of factors. In much of the farming industry they use a scale called Growing Degree Days (GDD). I'm not a tomato expert, but I assume that tomatoes ripen like a lot of other crops where the optimal temperature is somewhere in the upper 70s or low 80s. A high diurnal change can slow things down and retain acid in the fruit. The more time a crop spends in the goldilocks zone in the upper 70s the faster it will ripen. Too much and the plants shut down, same with cold temperatures as we all know. GDD takes the average of the high and low of the daily temperatures and comes up with a number. Each day these numbers are added together and you get the GDD. It looks like Tomatoes have a base of 50F which is similar to Corn and Grapes. https://mrcc.illinois.edu/gismaps/info/gddinfo.htm

I know a lot about growing grapes and depending on what variety you grow and where you grow them can greatly influence the amount of GDDs you'll get in a given season. I am sure it's the same with tomatoes. When one seed supplier says 65 days to maturity, where was this taken? Was that a warm year? GDD measurements would standardize the maturity index nationwide, but I'm not sure everyone is ready to adopt something that is more difficult than the DTM scale...

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MrBig46
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#18

Post: # 37826Unread post MrBig46
Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:25 am

How quickly a tomato fruit grows and ripens does not only depend on the temperature. What matters is how long the day is, how many hours the sun shines, what the soil is, how many nutrients it has, how much it rains or how it is watered. I would like to see the formula according to which everyone could calculate it.
Vladimír

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Rockoe10
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#19

Post: # 37840Unread post Rockoe10
Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:43 pm

🤯, i think my brain hurts.
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Rob, ZONE 6A with 170 days between frost dates, Western Pennsylvania

TomHillbilly
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Re: Days Until Maturity?

#20

Post: # 37864Unread post TomHillbilly
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:52 pm

Rockoe10-- You nailed it.
But I wish you hadn't of caused a coffee spew on my keyboard-- hard to clean.

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