Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Doffer
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Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

#1

Post: # 54928Unread post Doffer
Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:24 am

Did u guy make you’re own crosses between green x green tomatoes, and what colors did u get?

A green tomato have the recessive genes for greenflesh and yellow fruit. This combination makes a tomato green ripe.

There are many yellow tomato genes. This make it that when u cross a yellow x yellow tomato u still can get red tomatoes.
So im wondering when will happen if u cross the green x green tomatoes?

I aspect u get brown or green tomatoes.
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

#2

Post: # 54973Unread post Bower
Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:58 pm

The typical GWR tomato has either yellow or bicolor allele at the red/yellow/bicolor locus.
The other possibility is that in addition, the green tomato may have tt tangerine.
Tangerine is a different locus, separate from r/y/or ry and it can be expressed in any of those conditions, red yellow or bi.
However if your parent fruit is a 'tangerine green' that means it is already y/y or ry/ry bicolor background. There is no possibility of brown fruit because the red condition can't be there, if the parent fruit is green.
The other 'yellow' which you mention would be Beta orange, and that is another locus altogether and distinct from tangerine and r/y/ry. However, Beta requires r/r red condition at that other locus to be expressed. There is therefore no possibility of a GWR parent fruit which is Beta orange. The parent fruit would be brown, not green.
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 54978Unread post Rockoe10
Sat Oct 02, 2021 5:22 pm

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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 55007Unread post Pippin
Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:05 am

I have not grossed two greens myself but generally the result should be green. When two recessive allels of the same gene are crossed, the double recessive F1 normally looks the same than one of the parents. The allelic genes do not typically complement each other, they are not able to fix the mutant.

There is a special case when allelic recessive genes could produce a wild type or an intermedium phenotype in F1 though. I have not seen any reports on this happening in green x green crosses with tomatoes but if you have observed it, it would be very interesting to learn more. A good term to google is intragenic complementation.
During intragenic complementation, alleles of the same gene complement one another, even though both alleles produce a faulty gene product. There are different means by which mutant alleles of the same gene can mutually correct one another. First, one mutant gene product may reduce the dosage of the other mutant product. Second, a faulty complex formed by one mutant gene product may be stabilized by the presence of an alternatively mutant gene product. Third, a gene product containing a mutation that affects one function may provide the function missing from an alternatively altered gene product.
http://www.wormbook.org/chapters/www_c ... ation.html
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 55012Unread post Doffer
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:53 am

There are many genes that can make yellow flesh. And all are recessive.
So im wondering what will happen if both genes are heterozygous like:

r gene = yellow flesh
rprov4 gene = yellow flesh
rprov5 gene = yellow flesh
r(2s) gene = yellow flesh
r(1s) gene = yellow flesh

gf gene = green flesh

So a normal green tomato will have the combination: r r, gf gf genes

But what if we make a cross and get the genes: r r(1s), gf gf?

Do people have examples for this?
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 55013Unread post Doffer
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:54 am

We can also ask the same question for a yellow tomato.
What if we cross a r r yellow to a r(2s) r(2s) yellow tomato.
We will get r and r(2s) heterozygous, but will this appear to a red or yellow tomato?
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

#7

Post: # 55015Unread post Bower
Sun Oct 03, 2021 6:18 am

I'm not surprised to learn that there are many alleles of yellow, but I haven't read about them - could you share a link, @Doffer ?

I once had the same question though, about the different gf alleles. In crossing tomatoes with different gf alleles, would they still be black. The answer is yes. All these alleles in F1 and beyond produce green flesh in any combination. I suspect it would be the same for yellow.
A yellow cross I've been working on is probably an example of this, as the yellow color is different in the two parents. All the offspring are yellow, but some resemble one parent and some resemble the other.
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 55026Unread post Pippin
Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:34 am

When the researchers give a name (i.e. r something) for a new yellow variant gene, they typically test how the new yellow variant behaves when crossed to already known yellow variant(s). It would not get a r based family name unless it was tested how it behaves when crossed with known yellow(s). Not sure if all combinations are tested but at least one. It is safe to assume that all variants of r’s are producing the same phenotype and even the carotenoid profiles are close to each other.

I think the heterozygous r + r(2s) would be yellow - unless this combo was the rare exemption to the general rule and the r + r(2s) could fix carotenoid pathway to produce (some) red lychopene. But I don’t think there are any known reds from such a cross. Because it is theoretically still possible, I think everyone would be excited to learn which cross would produce one.

So, the F1 will be yellow. Unless it was red. Which is the reason that makes the tomato crossing so exciting. :D
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 55063Unread post Pippin
Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:41 pm

I have some questions about gf allels if you don’t mind asking them here.

I have gf in my breeding lines from three or four different sources. When I selected F3s and F2s to save this season, I was pretty sure some reds had gf. But when I saved the seeds closer to the overripe stage, the green in the flesh or gel had sometimes fainted.

As the gf is a loss of function in the mechanism of breaking the chlorophyl in the ripening fruit, are there still differences in gf allels on how compeletely the breaking ability is lost? Some gf allels producing more intense and stable greens than the others?

Is the green color of the gel a reliable way to identify gf or are there other genes that produce green gel than gf? I would assume that the gf is not the only gene to produce green gel but I am not completely sure.
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 55064Unread post mama_lor
Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:50 am

Isn't red + gf a so called black? The 'black' color varies among varieties, some are quite pale, like chernomor, and the kumato is really quite dark. The darker just means more lycopene is still in there. There are various genes that regulate how much lycopene there are in a tomato, also degree of ripeness has a clear role, so probably those will ultimately dictate how much red is left to add to the green.
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 55067Unread post Bower
Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:42 am

@Pippin I believe you are correct, that it's possible different gf alleles may produce these differences in the loss of green color in very ripe fruit, but I couldn't say which is which. It may also be due to interaction of other color genetics. I don't know anything about different alleles of red flesh or clear/yellow skin that might also exist and interact with gf to alter the ripe color if left to ripen to the furthest endpoint in terms of chlorophyll conversion. So it's certainly possible that these less known or studied effects of alleles are in play.
There is also the interaction of "shelf life" to consider. If gf impairs but doesn't completely stop conversion to lycopene, a long lived fruit could turn completely red or pink. OTOH, some 'black' fruit with a short shelf life might simply rot before they get to the point of converting most of the chlorophyll.
With regards the green gel, I would hazard a guess that this color or rate of ripening is under separate genetic control. I say that because we had two selections in the year I grew Rodney F4, one of which was distinguished by greener gel as well as a difference in taste.
So as usual with "simple" mendelian genetics, they are useful but merely mask the underlying complexity which gives rise to an endless spectrum of variations.
Since I don't grow red tomatoes as often I couldn't remember for sure if they sometimes have green gel, but a quick google turned up this confirmation:
https://www.eatortoss.com/tomato-insides-a-bit-green/
The breeder interviewed has said that some red tomatoes tend to have greener gel even when fully ripe. So it is a distinct trait, not entirely governed by gf/gf.
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 55068Unread post Bower
Mon Oct 04, 2021 7:46 am

mama_lor wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:50 am Isn't red + gf a so called black? The 'black' color varies among varieties, some are quite pale, like chernomor, and the kumato is really quite dark. The darker just means more lycopene is still in there. There are various genes that regulate how much lycopene there are in a tomato, also degree of ripeness has a clear role, so probably those will ultimately dictate how much red is left to add to the green.
Yeah, red genetics + gf gives a brown-black, while pink genetics + gf gives a 'purple' black. Chernomor is a pink black (clear skin genetics) while Kumato is a brown black (yellow skin genetics).
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 55085Unread post Pippin
Mon Oct 04, 2021 2:31 pm

Thanks for all input and comments!

I remember seeing green gel in red and other colour tomatoes that I didn’t consider having the gf gene. So maybe it is safe to assume that the gel can be green without gf.

I don’t typically have any problems spotting the gf gene, however, I am now doubting myself as the green seems sometimes to faint in very ripe fruit. You can judge yourself in the below pic combo, I consider all these having gf. All are at almost overripe stage, except the bottom right. If they were at a less ripe stage, I think they would more clearly express green flesh. Top left does not really have any green left in the flesh but the gel is still very green (which is of course easier to see at yellow flesh background).

Note the ones with green shoulders: seems to me that the gf would keep the shoulders also very green at very ripe stage. (Except the cross with Green sausage where the shoulders look brownish. :shock: )

Top left: cross with Lime Green Salad
Top right: cross with Evil Olive
Bottom left: cross with Aftershock
Bottom right: cross with Green sausage (extra red and pink as a colour reference)

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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 56599Unread post Pippin
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:51 pm

Found this interesting study on gf, just recording it here:

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/85220421.pdf

Here some interesting findings:
  • The studied gf allel expressed both in the fruit and leaves.
  • The leaves of gf plant keeps the green colour persistently, even when they get old or are exposed to ethylen or are kept long time in dark. Wild type leaves becomes yellow in similar conditions.
  • Wild type fruit lost most of the chlorophyll three days after the breaker stage (B+3).
  • gf fruit had 84% of chlorophyll at B+3 and 28% at B+10. So at least the studied gf allel (in combination with R) seems to loose some green over time.
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 56604Unread post Bower
Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:24 pm

Interesting detail, about the leaves!
I've certainly seen gf diminish over time in fruit with a long shelf life. Still delicious... :)
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 56635Unread post Shule
Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:11 am

I haven't crossed two GWR tomatoes with each other to my knowledge.

I have, however, had a cross between a green and a yellow (Green Giant x Golden King of Siberia). The F1 was yellow (probably somewhat greener than Golden King of Siberia was, though). Golden King of Siberia has a unique yellow; it's not like most yellow tomatoes.
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

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Post: # 56710Unread post Pippin
Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:04 am

Here is an example of green x white cross. This is not an actual breeding project of mine, I just made the cross for fun. :D I am planning to continue the F2 line though because the F1 tasted so sweet and was quite crack resistant. I like the parent lines too but I have had some cracking (as I may not always have optimum irrigation).

There are four tomato lines in the picture: below descriptions are starting from left-top and going down to right-bottom:
1) Red tomato Stormin' Norman: This is an indeterminate multiflora with RR+gfgf+YY (i.e. "black" or "borwn" if you like).
2) Green tomato Stormin' Norman: This is a spontaneous mutant (or segregation) from 1) in my garden, rr+gfgf+YY. Also indeterminate multiflora.
3) White tomato Barry's Crazy Cherry: Also indeterminate multiflora, rr+GFGF+yy.
4) Yellow tomato F1 between 2)x3): Also indeterminate multiflora, rr+gfGF+yY.

I expect to see four different colors in the F2 generation: greens with yellow skin, greens with clear skin, yellows and whites.

I tried to cross 1) and 3) too, but that cross didn't make. :(
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Re: Crosses Green x Green tomato to make a F1

#18

Post: # 56716Unread post Doffer
Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:30 pm

Examples like this im looking for. So u cross two different r genes (yellow) and still got a yellow F1.
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