Crossing with Solanum Habrochaites

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Bower
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Re: Crossing with Solanum Habrochaites

#21

Post: # 74827Unread post Bower
Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:00 pm

Those are really white! Pretty like a melon! ;)

https://the-biologist-is-in.blogspot.co ... atoes.html is helpful in showing the pathway of carotenoid synthesis that produces the usual tomato colors. The white or absence of color in your F1 says to me that something is blocking the pathway before it gets colorful. Maybe at the phytoene synthesis level or perhaps even before that. ?
Whatever genetic condition it is, it must be dominant to the genes that would lead to yellow.
I am assuming that your yellow parent is rr yellow not BB beta, as that would offer a different explanation, because Beta requires the RR condition in the background, or it isn't expressed. Since the F1 would be R/- a Beta color would fail to be expressed. The wild type allele for the R locus in habrochaites is probably something entirely different. So that would be a second possibility, in the case of a Beta parent.

Here is something more professional about the carotenoid pathway in green fruited habrochaites - multiple blocks to that system.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29048567/
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Pippin
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Re: Crossing with Solanum Habrochaites

#22

Post: # 75341Unread post Pippin
Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:39 pm

Love the ivory yellow with green tones! :D

For me it seems to behave like a yellow x yellow or yellow x tangerine cross. There are some pretty white phenotypes in cultivated tomato that are still considered as yellows. Maybe they are coming from S.H. crosses? Reminds me little bit of Barry’s Crazy Cherry, for example.

I think you need to see what happens in the F2 to really judge the green flesh and how it behaves. The green seems to be mostly in the gel, not really in the flesh. It is still unclear to me how much the green gel and the green flesh phenotypes are related to each other. We had a discussion on it earlier in this forum. If I remember correctly, in the ”wild type”, most of the chlorophyl should be gone three days after the breaker stage. I would not be surprised if a heterozygote gf would just loose the chlorophyl just little slower because whatever (enzyme?) breaks the chlorophyl down must be still there but could be in lower dose.
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Pippin

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Part 9: The seeds

#23

Post: # 84055Unread post Frosti
Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:06 am

Start of part 9.

Has it really been 4 months since the last update? Time flies ...
Anyway here is the update regarding ...

... the seeds

Remember when I told you that there seems to be very bad pollination on the first fruit cluster?
Pretty much the same was true for all the other fruits, even the bigger ones. Sure, some of them had more than 2-3 seeds, but there were definitely fewer seeds than normal. Every now and again there was a single fruit that had a normal amount of seeds. I can only speculate as to why these outliers had more seeds. Maybe these fruits were the product of cross-pollination? Idk ...
Poor pollination success of course meant that it was quite cumbersome to gather a sufficient amount of seeds (which in my case meant collecting seeds from pretty much every fruit on the plant :D). Here's what a single batch (there were 1 small and 2 big batches, this one is batch #3) looks like:
a_lot_of_work.jpg
After fermenting the second batch of seeds for ~7 days the result was this:
overview_seeds.jpg
Here is a closeup:
closeup_seeds.jpg
Is it just me or do these seeds seem both a hell of a lot darker and hairier than normal tomato seeds?
The shape also appears to be a bit more triangular than normal.

Here is a color comparision with a random selection of ordinary tomato seeds. Keep in mind that the flash of the camera exaggerates the color difference - but it's definitely there:
color_difference.jpg
Maybe the color difference is a result of over fermentation?
I decided to also save the rest of the seeds in another huge batch, in case I inadvertently killed all of the seeds in batch #2. This time I only let them sit in their own juice (+some water) for 1 1/2 - 2 days. That was not enough time for the seeds to separate from the goo, so I mostly removed it mechanically. The result looked like this:
without_fermentation.jpg
This time they are not as dark.

I do not believe that the darker seeds are unviable. I'll compare germination rates of batches #2 and #3 next spring.

Do you guys believe the darker seeds are dead?

End of part 9.
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Re: Crossing with Solanum Habrochaites

#24

Post: # 84192Unread post Bower
Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:07 pm

I have had some seeds turn dark due to over-fermentation but I don't have any germination test data to compare with normally colored seeds. However I have seen plenty of shades of seeds that did germinate normally, even if they weren't the "perfect" fermented tomato seed color. The uncontrolled fermentation process is somewhat random in what organisms get into the jar (granted that there is some priority to the inhabiting organisms of the tomato), and possibly some odd microbe yeast or other fungus has the effect of darkening the color without actually doing harm.

Those seeds really do look hairy!! :)

I've noticed a lot of variation in seed shape and size, from one variety to another, although I don't know a lot about the genetics of it. You definitely have a triangular shape there, and will probably see segregation of different shapes in the next generation.

Excited to see you got a good number of seeds for next year, even if it was a lot of work. ;) Cheers!
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Some observations of this year's S. Habrochaites

#25

Post: # 87365Unread post Frosti
Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:00 pm

Remember this little guy?
rescued.jpg
It turned out to be a true-bred half-sibling of the S. Habrochaites cross (10-22), so it allowed me to observe some characteristics that I missed last season.

Observation 1:
The fruits definitively do NOT turn white once they're ripe (or even after sitting in a box for months).
They always retain that green hue. After a few months one can see the slightest hint of yellowing, though.
ripe.jpg
Observation 2:
This plant had no (self) pollination issues whatsoever. The fruits were filled with seeds.
lots_of_seeds.jpg
Observation 3:
Using S. Habrochaites as the female parent of a cross with S. Lycopersicum is more difficult than the other way around.
All of the flowers I pollinated with S. Lycopersicum pollen dropped. I think I tried about 4 or 5 flowers. Maybe it was too hot at the time, maybe the pollen donor had issues, or this is the result of an inherent cross-pollination prevention mechanism within S. Habrochaites.
@Shule, I guess creating a cybrid calls for a more sophisticated approach. I believe it can still be done, but it would require a lot more trial and error. My approach would be to use an offspring of a cross with S. Habrochaites (male) as the pollen donor (like 10-22). So the pollen would have 50% S. Habrochaites and 50% S. Lycopersicum genetics. Maybe that is enough to prevent the flower from dropping. Maybe one needs an even higher percentage of S. Habrochaites genes (which is where F2 plants would come into play). I don't see a reason why this method wouldn't eventually lead to a successful cross. These crosses would have to be repeated every season with an ever increasing share of S. Lycopersicum genetics (obtained through backcrosses) until the line can be crossed with 100% S. Lycopersicum.
dropped_flowers.jpg
Observation 4:
This is the most intriguing discovery. Look at this picture:
locule_line.jpg
I've handled dozens of S. Habrochaites fruits and hundreds of 10-22 fruits, but I never noticed (doesn't mean it wasn't there) individual fruits with more than a single line on the bottom of the fruit. But here is one with 3 lines. After cutting this one open I saw this:
three_locules.jpg
The fruit has three locules! After this, it dawned on me. Could it be that the line corresponds to the number of locules in the fruit? Yep, it does. What I called "the line" should actually be called "the lines" since there are two or three lines that simply meet at the bottom of the fruit. If there are two then they intersect at an angle of 180° and if there are three, then they intersect at an angle of 120°. So for "n" locules the lines intersect at 360°/n. That's not all, look at this:
line_geometry.jpg
The lines cut the locules (almost exactly) in half! I tested this with multiple fruits and it was true for all of them.
I bet observation 4 was true for 10-22 as well, but there is no way to test that now...

rgds
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Re: Crossing with Solanum Habrochaites

#26

Post: # 87376Unread post Pippin
Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:05 am

Interesting observation that there is a relationship between the locus numbers and bottom lines. Now that you demonstrated it, it really makes sense.

After reading your post last summer, I realized that I have something similar in one of my breeding line between Evil Olive and a compact pink cherry. But because I had more than one crossing line I thought maybe it was something else. In my crosses, the bottom lines seems to be coming from Evil Olive side which makes me wonder if it has some S. Habrochaites heritage. You can see the bottom line in some EO pics in net, e.g. https://www.vertiloom.com/en/evil-olive-seeds.html

Below is a pic from my breeding line. I didn’t check the locus numbers on these.
F92D49E7-44E7-4011-9F34-837C24AB83A6.jpeg
Edit: here is a sibling line.
826400D8-7344-4F3F-B8E6-B18E7A809166.jpeg
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Pippin

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Re: Crossing with Solanum Habrochaites

#27

Post: # 87392Unread post Frosti
Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:33 am

Very interesting, @Pippin! Please let us know next summer, if the line patterns on your breeding lines behave the same way as the patterns on S. Habrochaites.

Is the parentage of Evil Olive known? Couldn't find much in text form. Maybe one of the videos on YouTube can shed some light on this matter.

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Re: Crossing with Solanum Habrochaites

#28

Post: # 87397Unread post Bower
Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:19 am

One thing for sure @Frosti, with a Habrochaites cross volunteering through a crack in the pavement, I believe you have caught this species' attention, and it really wants to play. :)
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Re: Crossing with Solanum Habrochaites

#29

Post: # 87402Unread post Frosti
Sun Jan 22, 2023 8:57 am

Bower wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:19 am One thing for sure @Frosti, with a Habrochaites cross volunteering through a crack in the pavement, I believe you have caught this species' attention, and it really wants to play. :)
I think I'll accept its advances :D

This one isn't a cross, though. This is a true S. Habrochaites.

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Re: Crossing with Solanum Habrochaites

#30

Post: # 87408Unread post Pippin
Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:41 am

I don’t think the parentage of EO is publickly known, in fact there is conflicting information where it was crossed or selected. Some claim it was named in US but others refer to Ukraine. It is sometimes called as K-54-84. And if the K stands for Kozula, wasn’t she Polish? So confusing.

Let’s see if I still have bottom lines next summer as the trait seems to be dominant (?) and I only plan to grow 1-2 of these plants. Seems very likely that I had heterozygote plants (as not all siblings had these lines).
BR,
Pippin

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Re: Crossing with Solanum Habrochaites

#31

Post: # 87424Unread post Frosti
Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:52 am

It should be a dominant trait, since my F1 (10-22) had the same pattern.

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