Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
- Sue_CT
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
akgardener, next year you might try individual small cups to start them in. You can use a good seed starting medium and still treat them individually. You can get a bag of these little cups at Walmart pretty cheap for 50 or 100 of them. I use a nail to put 2 holes in the bottom of each cup. I do 5 or 6 cups at a time sticking the nail through them all at one time so It didn't take much time. Of course if you are starting/growing hundreds of seeds at a time it is not a good method for that.
I used the same Jiffy stuff years ago. The peat pots need to removed to plant no matter what they say or I have found they restrict the roots. I always at least cut the pellets up the side before planting them at least and often removed the netting. I found they soak up too much water and the peat pots dried out too much. That said, maybe they will work great for you.
Seed starting in Dixi Cups by Susan Albetski, on Flickr
I used the same Jiffy stuff years ago. The peat pots need to removed to plant no matter what they say or I have found they restrict the roots. I always at least cut the pellets up the side before planting them at least and often removed the netting. I found they soak up too much water and the peat pots dried out too much. That said, maybe they will work great for you.
Seed starting in Dixi Cups by Susan Albetski, on Flickr
- AKgardener
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
That’s actually a really good idea thank you I always have cups because of how much the family stops by I can never keep up with the cups !! I did find this out about the pods because
Have some in there right now and im watering a lot because they fry out to quick and I think that is why my corn didn’t grow last year I took the cloth of but kept them in the pod and Put it the ground when I dug them up they had no roots and the stuff still on there . I was using the smaller one and did just Thst broke them up once they germinated. You would think I would learn my lesson but it did t really hit me That oh ya that’s why it didn’t work until you mentioned it . Age is catching up haha
Have some in there right now and im watering a lot because they fry out to quick and I think that is why my corn didn’t grow last year I took the cloth of but kept them in the pod and Put it the ground when I dug them up they had no roots and the stuff still on there . I was using the smaller one and did just Thst broke them up once they germinated. You would think I would learn my lesson but it did t really hit me That oh ya that’s why it didn’t work until you mentioned it . Age is catching up haha
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- Shule
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
And sometimes they're supermutants, or some such. I've had that happen once or twice. I mean, I had a smaller Matina seedling that seemed unusual and different from the rest of the Matina seedlings. I grew it out to see what would result. What happened was it grew branches sooner and more abundantly than the regular Matina, while not getting as enormous of a plant. It produced more fruit in the first flush. The traits seemed to be possibly genetic (particularly the plant size). I gave seeds to someone else, who said it was very prolific (I'm not sure how it compares to the regular one, as I haven't grown them side-by-side in the same conditions).
Location: SW Idaho, USA
Climate: BSk
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Climate: BSk
USDA hardiness zone: 6
Elevation: 2,260 feet
- Tormato
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
So, the question becomes, are there seeds to share of the mutant Matina, for others to do side-by-side growouts, to arrive at any conclusion?Shule wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:19 amAnd sometimes they're supermutants, or some such. I've had that happen once or twice. I mean, I had a smaller Matina seedling that seemed unusual and different from the rest of the Matina seedlings. I grew it out to see what would result. What happened was it grew branches sooner and more abundantly than the regular Matina, while not getting as enormous of a plant. It produced more fruit in the first flush. The traits seemed to be possibly genetic (particularly the plant size). I gave seeds to someone else, who said it was very prolific (I'm not sure how it compares to the regular one, as I haven't grown them side-by-side in the same conditions).
- bower
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
You do realize that it must be called "Mutina". Logically speaking.Tormato wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:16 amSo, the question becomes, are there seeds to share of the mutant Matina, for others to do side-by-side growouts, to arrive at any conclusion?Shule wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:19 amAnd sometimes they're supermutants, or some such. I've had that happen once or twice. I mean, I had a smaller Matina seedling that seemed unusual and different from the rest of the Matina seedlings. I grew it out to see what would result. What happened was it grew branches sooner and more abundantly than the regular Matina, while not getting as enormous of a plant. It produced more fruit in the first flush. The traits seemed to be possibly genetic (particularly the plant size). I gave seeds to someone else, who said it was very prolific (I'm not sure how it compares to the regular one, as I haven't grown them side-by-side in the same conditions).
AgCan Zone 5a/USDA zone 4
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
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yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
- Tormato
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
Only if the fruit doesn't turn out to be a dog. Then it would be Muttina.Bower wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:48 pmYou do realize that it must be called "Mutina". Logically speaking.Tormato wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:16 amSo, the question becomes, are there seeds to share of the mutant Matina, for others to do side-by-side growouts, to arrive at any conclusion?Shule wrote: ↑Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:19 amAnd sometimes they're supermutants, or some such. I've had that happen once or twice. I mean, I had a smaller Matina seedling that seemed unusual and different from the rest of the Matina seedlings. I grew it out to see what would result. What happened was it grew branches sooner and more abundantly than the regular Matina, while not getting as enormous of a plant. It produced more fruit in the first flush. The traits seemed to be possibly genetic (particularly the plant size). I gave seeds to someone else, who said it was very prolific (I'm not sure how it compares to the regular one, as I haven't grown them side-by-side in the same conditions).
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
So I just thought I would update on this, in case this helps anyone (or me) in the future. The two plants in the original post/picture were an Ember on the left, and a Honeycomb Hybrid on the right. The seeds were planted on 3/22, that original picture was taken on 4/13. I planted seeds for replacement plants on 4/12, the Ember seeds emerged on 4/16 (100% germination), the Honeycomb Hybrid on 4/21 or 22 (50% germination).
On 5/2 I up-potted the originals and the replacements (the originals hadn't changed much from the original picture). At that time the replacement Ember was bigger than the original, but the replacement Honeycomb Hybrid hadn't caught up to the original. In the process of up-potting, the original Ember Jiffy pellet fell apart and there were NO roots, just the stalk. When I up-potted I planted the runts deep, especially the one with no roots, here's a washed-out picture from a few days after up-potting, Embers on the left, Honeycomb Hybrids on the right, in each case, original plant on left, replacement on right:
So now today--the runt Ember, which had no roots, now looks like a viable plant, although smaller than it's newer relative that was planted 3 weeks later. The replacement Honeycomb Hybrid, which is itself a bit runtish, is about the same size as the original, if not quite as thick. I will plant out the replacement Ember in a few days, but I ordered a Honeycomb Hybrid plant from Burpee for my planned spot for that. I'm going to find a spot for the 3 runts, you know, in the name of science, and report back later in the year on how they did.
Conclusions...first, why are there runts? Certainly some of it may be growing conditions, but as Tormato said early on, some plants are just runts, and it would seem based on my replacement Honeycomb Hybrid, that this group of seeds may just not be great, as my replacement, which I controlled pretty carefully, had poor/long germination and slow growth.
My second conclusion is...that it seems if you up-pot, plant deeper, etc., runts can be saved and turned into viable plants, but I'm not sure they will be as robust as a "good" seedling, and you have to consider the time factor when faced with limited growing seasons, as to whether it's worth trying to save them vs. replanting or planting extra to begin with (which I generally don't do). However, if you have other reasons to save a runt (seed availability, etc.) it seems it can be done.
PS The keeping the runts dry and bottom watering to encourage root growth didn't really seem to work; after I up-potted I watered from the top generously to try to stimulate root growth from the buried stem.
On 5/2 I up-potted the originals and the replacements (the originals hadn't changed much from the original picture). At that time the replacement Ember was bigger than the original, but the replacement Honeycomb Hybrid hadn't caught up to the original. In the process of up-potting, the original Ember Jiffy pellet fell apart and there were NO roots, just the stalk. When I up-potted I planted the runts deep, especially the one with no roots, here's a washed-out picture from a few days after up-potting, Embers on the left, Honeycomb Hybrids on the right, in each case, original plant on left, replacement on right:
So now today--the runt Ember, which had no roots, now looks like a viable plant, although smaller than it's newer relative that was planted 3 weeks later. The replacement Honeycomb Hybrid, which is itself a bit runtish, is about the same size as the original, if not quite as thick. I will plant out the replacement Ember in a few days, but I ordered a Honeycomb Hybrid plant from Burpee for my planned spot for that. I'm going to find a spot for the 3 runts, you know, in the name of science, and report back later in the year on how they did.
Conclusions...first, why are there runts? Certainly some of it may be growing conditions, but as Tormato said early on, some plants are just runts, and it would seem based on my replacement Honeycomb Hybrid, that this group of seeds may just not be great, as my replacement, which I controlled pretty carefully, had poor/long germination and slow growth.
My second conclusion is...that it seems if you up-pot, plant deeper, etc., runts can be saved and turned into viable plants, but I'm not sure they will be as robust as a "good" seedling, and you have to consider the time factor when faced with limited growing seasons, as to whether it's worth trying to save them vs. replanting or planting extra to begin with (which I generally don't do). However, if you have other reasons to save a runt (seed availability, etc.) it seems it can be done.
PS The keeping the runts dry and bottom watering to encourage root growth didn't really seem to work; after I up-potted I watered from the top generously to try to stimulate root growth from the buried stem.
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- LindaJean
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
The runt in the top photo is taller than my dwarfs.
It is mid May and most of my seedlings are not an inch tall yet , only starting to grow the second set of leaves.
Tomato growing is not for the faint of heart.
It is mid May and most of my seedlings are not an inch tall yet , only starting to grow the second set of leaves.
Tomato growing is not for the faint of heart.
- Sue_CT
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
No idea where you are located but for most locales I would say yours are going to be too late. When did you plant them? In what? What is your usual plant out date?
- LindaJean
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
Yeah I was afraid of that. I always want to know the truth -especially when it hurts.
I'm in N Idaho. There has been terrible weather, and because I tried to go the cheap route without grow lights , my plants hardly got any sun. My neighbor grew his tomatoes in his bedroom window , the same apartment set up as mine. He was gloating that his tomato plants are a foot tall " with all kinds of leaves " .
Defeat is hard to accept, but maybe I should turn my attention to other things for this year. I'm going to still try with the Uluru Ochre, they are an extra early one.
I still have phenomenal seeds for next year if I get the chance to do it right next time.
I'm in N Idaho. There has been terrible weather, and because I tried to go the cheap route without grow lights , my plants hardly got any sun. My neighbor grew his tomatoes in his bedroom window , the same apartment set up as mine. He was gloating that his tomato plants are a foot tall " with all kinds of leaves " .
Defeat is hard to accept, but maybe I should turn my attention to other things for this year. I'm going to still try with the Uluru Ochre, they are an extra early one.
I still have phenomenal seeds for next year if I get the chance to do it right next time.
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- Sue_CT
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
You don't have to give up on the entire season. Go out and buy one or two plants and put your seedlings in with those wherever you were planning to plant anyway. I don't know about where you are but around here if you get 2 tomatoes off each purchased plant, you have probably broken even with the price of food right now. Tomato plants need a good amount of light to grow and even if you bought plants you might still get a few late tomatoes from the seedlings if you just get them out of your apartment and into the sun so they CAN grow.
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
Looks like 50% last frost date is May 15 for northern Idaho. 10% is June 21!!
- Sue_CT
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
1" is pretty small and they aren't likely to go much faster without light. But getting them out into the sun might speed things along. June 21 is pretty late, like zone 3 or something, and in growing seasons that short I would want to start with larger more vigorous plants to make sure I actually had enough time to get a decent crop. Idaho has a wide range of zones from 3-7, so depending on just how North we talking of course will dictate how much time is left to plant out to get those seedlings ready, and again, that will never happen if they are kept inside with no light. Personally, I would hedge my bets and buy a plant or two and get the seedlings out as soon as it is safe as well.
- MissS
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
Nope go right ahead and grow those out. My seedlings are all 2-3 inches high and need to be potted into their individual pots now. I do it like this every year and still have a nice crop of tomatoes and plenty to share.LindaJean wrote: ↑Tue May 17, 2022 1:35 pm Yeah I was afraid of that. I always want to know the truth -especially when it hurts.
I'm in N Idaho. There has been terrible weather, and because I tried to go the cheap route without grow lights , my plants hardly got any sun. My neighbor grew his tomatoes in his bedroom window , the same apartment set up as mine. He was gloating that his tomato plants are a foot tall " with all kinds of leaves " .
Defeat is hard to accept, but maybe I should turn my attention to other things for this year. I'm going to still try with the Uluru Ochre, they are an extra early one.
I still have phenomenal seeds for next year if I get the chance to do it right next time.
~ Patti ~
- LindaJean
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
Well, the fighter seedlings were outside at least four or five hours yesterday and today. I kept about half of them and will probably narrow it down again as time goes by. I hope at least one valiant plant will produce something edible. It was sad to throw Dark Galaxy, Apricot Zebra, Thorburn's Terra Cotta , Summer of Love, Alice's Dream, Little unLucky and a few others into the garden for compost. All is not lost...
- bower
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
You might be pleasantly surprised if you just poked them into the compost... and let them grow in it. I've done this before, and got some fruit, even though it was an unhappy plant and too early in the season. Compost piles are warm....
I potted up my two runts. One of them has really short internodes (length between leaves) and put on an early flower! Roots were not as extensive as the biggest plants but still normal. The second runt (with no such sign of flowers) was exactly as Tormato described - hardly any roots.
But I had a spare small pot for it, so potted up anyway.
I potted up my two runts. One of them has really short internodes (length between leaves) and put on an early flower! Roots were not as extensive as the biggest plants but still normal. The second runt (with no such sign of flowers) was exactly as Tormato described - hardly any roots.
But I had a spare small pot for it, so potted up anyway.
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- LindaJean
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
It would be funny if the compost tomatoes became the high achievers.
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Re: Tomato Stunted Seedlings/Runts
Well, here's my runts today--I've been hardening them off under a glass table and they've gotten a little leggy:
I'm going to plant them in my pea planters sometime soon, as it's about time for the spring crop to start falling off.
I'm going to plant them in my pea planters sometime soon, as it's about time for the spring crop to start falling off.
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