Hybrids for hobbyists

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Barmaley
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Hybrids for hobbyists

#1

Post: # 28629Unread post Barmaley
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:58 pm

Hello all,

I am fascinated with my new hobby - growing tomatoes. Since it is entertainment for me and not a food production (I live in the area where in a high season you may but a bushel or tomatoes from a farm for $8). So I am looking for exotic and delicious variety. In other words I am looking for "the best" - which is not easy to define but under any circumstances I am looking for sweet, tangy juicy ones. The question is - where to look - hybrids or heirlooms? In theory hybrids suppose to be better since seeds companies spent efforts to create them. On the other hand I doubt that they are looking after hobbyists since this is not where they can make money but rather commercial growers. Unfortunately, in the USA market conditions dictate delivery of nice looking, firm and tasteless tomatoes - that is what customers want. Several hybrid plants which I tried like early girl was disappointment since the taste is mediocre. Exceptions for me were sungolds and red torch which were better than sunrise bumblebees and pink bumblebees - they were both less productive and less tasty. So - if I am looking for taste - should I look for heirlooms or hybrids?
Last edited by Barmaley on Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

farmersteve
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#2

Post: # 28651Unread post farmersteve
Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:05 am

I can't give you any recommendations but I disagree with your assertion that people want tasteless, boring round tomatoes. At least here on the west coast they don't. The better grocery stores around here have a large variety of "heirloom" tomatoes in a wide range of colors and shapes.

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Shule
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#3

Post: # 28658Unread post Shule
Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:45 am

[mention]farmersteve[/mention]
That's pretty awesome.

We usually have about two to five kinds of tomatoes per store in my area. In recent years, they've been putting out some fancier commercial ones (e.g. Kumato, Big Taste, some fancy cherries, and more), but I don't see any heirlooms labeled with names, unless you count Roma (but I'm not confident they're actually the authentic Roma). I've seen Baja tomatoes for sale before; I believe it's an F1 hybrid.

Most of the people I've seen talk about tasteless grocery store tomatoes (certainly not about wanting them) do live out East, or in the South (but then, that's where most tomato gardeners in the USA live). I'm not sure how their tomatoes compare with the ones in my local stores.

I've tasted a few bland grocery store tomatoes, but most of them I've had weren't terrible. I'm rarely wowed by them, though! I have been wowed at least twice, however.

We usually only shop for tomatoes at The Grocery Outlet and rarely Walmart. So, there's probably other stuff if we were to look hard enough. I know there's a seemingly local produce market in the summer. I believe they might have heirlooms.
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Sue_CT
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#4

Post: # 28661Unread post Sue_CT
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:03 pm

Yes, I find people often want perfect looking medium round red tomatoes. Even in my family, I have had people say, don't you have any "normal" tomatoes? meaning the ones that look like the ones in the grocery stores. Not orange or yellow or black or bicolor or heart shaped or even pink. I grow heirlooms BECAUSE I grow for taste, not productivity or disease resistance. So yes, in my opinion if you want tasty tomatoes, go for the heirlooms. There are plenty of people with opnions on which ones here, lol. To start, I would try Stump of the World, Estler's Mortgage Lifter, Girl Girl's Weird Thing (not heirloom and not commercially available, but one of the best), Kellogg's Breakfast, Brandywine Sudduth, Cherokee Purple and then try some of the popular "heart" tomatoes.

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Shule
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#5

Post: # 28664Unread post Shule
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:46 pm

I think you should look for both, personally. Heirlooms and open-pollinated tomatoes generally do have a stronger reputation for taste, but there are a few commercial F1 hybrids that shine with regard to taste (particularly sweet cherries and grape tomatoes).
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karstopography
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#6

Post: # 28665Unread post karstopography
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:55 pm

Once, I did some volunteer work at a farm in central Massachusetts that grew beautiful produce, including heirloom type tomatoes. They were somehow connected to a food pantry for the needy. They couldn’t give away the heirloom tomatoes they grew, nobody or almost nobody at the food pantry, the patrons, recognized the not round, not symmetrical, blemished heirloom tomatoes for what they were, a superior offering to the round and perfect hothouse varieties found in every market across the land. Most people, not here on TJ but in general, want a look, a perfect looking tomato or apple and likely judge the book by its cover.

Taste is highly subjective. Can’t help one’s taste buds and olfactory abilities. My wife is a super taster. She Can detect the tiniest bit of something being off or some innocuous flavor that 9 people out of ten would never pick up on. She likes the open pollinated Mortgage Lifter (no idea which strain I grew). That tomato is good I suppose, but maybe too subtle for me as I am not a super taster. Seems to be lacking something for my tastes. I like Carmello, a hybrid. It’s bright and lively and the texture is what I want. That’s a tomato for me. Mortgage Lifter is a tomato for her.

Who is right? We both are.
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Pokemato
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#7

Post: # 28666Unread post Pokemato
Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:58 pm

Wow! That's incredible that you can find tomatoes for that price and that good quality heirloom tomatoes can be found at some local grocery stores. Neither is the case where I live. I've had some cherry tomatoes from the grocery that were pretty good, and some slicers with some flavor, but overall, the grocery store tomatoes are a tasteless, soulless lot :) To quote a vlog I frequent, they taste like disappointment :) I grow tomatoes for flavor and to experience and taste varieties I can't buy. I was shocked speechless when I stopped to talk to my neighbor, who has grown a garden in her yard for 20 years and she told me she only grows the same four varieties year after year! I want to try ALL of the tomatoes :) All of that to echo what Sue_CT said, because I grow for taste, I tend to grow heirlooms.

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WoodSprite
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#8

Post: # 28668Unread post WoodSprite
Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:05 pm

Barmaley wrote: Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:58 pm Hello all,

<<snip>>In theory hybrids suppose to be better since seeds companies spent efforts to create them. <<snip>>
[mention]Barmaley[/mention] - I would argue that heirlooms are better because they have various qualities that made them worthy of being passed down from generation to generation to generation for many years. Amazing flavor is just one of those qualities.

I find most hybrids boring, especially the common commercial varieties. I much prefer heirlooms. Of my favorites, I think you might like Juane Flamme for its sweet, fruity excellent flavor. It doesn't get large (which is my preferences in tomatoes) and is a gorgeous bright orange that adds visual interest to pico de gallo, salads, caprese salad, bruschetta and other dishes.

If I could grow 10 hybrids or just 1 heirloom, I'd pick the heirloom every time.
~ Darlene ~
My garden is made of multiple 6' diameter x 24" tall round stock tanks, located in a small clearing on our wooded property in the center of Pennsylvania. Hardiness zone 6b (updated). Heat zone 4.

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Sue_CT
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#9

Post: # 28669Unread post Sue_CT
Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:29 pm

Let me just clarify, growing "A" Mortgage Lifter tomato is NOT the same as growning ESTLER'S Mortgage Lifter. Growing a generic "Brandywine" is NOT the same as growing Brandywine Sudduth. I had been disappointed in both grown from locally bought plants with no particular stain specified. I tried these particular ones at the recommendation of the great, knoweldgable tomato guru, lol, Carolyn Male. She was right, and I never looked back. It is more work to find the right seeds, but they are out there and they are worth seeking out. Those looking for Estler's should be able to find them on this forum later this year as several members are doing grow outs this summer and saving seeds, and it has become very hard to find commercially. Girl Girls Weird Thing is not heirloom but worth seeking out and my introduction to it originated with Marsha, who is here on this forum and offers seeds or has for the past several years. Watch for her offer if she decides to do it again. Brandywine Sudduth is available commercially but you have to search for it specifically.
Last edited by Sue_CT on Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cole_Robbie
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#10

Post: # 28681Unread post Cole_Robbie
Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:34 pm

Are you growing in containers or in soil? If it is soil, I think flavor comes from improving that soil. With containers, that is not my gig, but I think variety selection is more important. Terrenzo is a hybrid that I have had make tasty red cherry tomatoes in just a hanging basket. It is forgiving to grow and makes a high brix fruit most people like. Maglia Rosa, an op variety, is similar, with pink fruit that are more subtle and less acidic in flavor.

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Shule
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#11

Post: # 28688Unread post Shule
Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:57 pm

[mention]Sue_CT[/mention]
Although Marsha loves and has promoted Girl Girl's Weird Thing, it was discovered by a dog named Girl Girl, owned by Jessica Hughes (who is jessleigh of Tomatoville). I'm a bit confused as to whether she lived in Canada, California (San Martin), or somewhere else at the time, though. I'm guessing California is correct and my other sources confused its abbreviation with Canada or something. It sounds like it was a sport of Green Zebra (not an accidental cross); it was the only tomato on the plant like it, I understand. I remember reading an old thread on Gardenweb where Jessica was looking for ideas on what to name it (and where she declared what she named it), if my memory serves me, but I couldn't find the post when I looked for it recently. The oldest reference I see to it is 15 May 2014, on helpfulgardener.com, but I think it's at least somewhat older than that. However, a TV thread lets us know that it was introduced in 2012, if it's correct.
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Mark_Thompson
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#12

Post: # 28689Unread post Mark_Thompson
Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:31 pm

Shule,
What is a “sport” that’s a new one to me.

As far as hybrid vs heirloom, my two favorite varieties So far are Green Giant and Brandy Boy, one of each. So I would advise the OP to just try as many varieties as you can, you never know which ones will end up being your favorites.
Wet and windy side of a Hawaiian island, just living the dream

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Sue_CT
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#13

Post: # 28690Unread post Sue_CT
Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:33 pm

Thank you for the information, Shule. My own experience with it is through Marsha. I did not remember Jessica, although I was on Gardenweb at the time. I knew the story about the dog discovering it, but that made it sound like an accidental cross to me. Either way, it is certainly not an heirloom, although it is open pollinated. I still recommend it highly. Maybe Marsha has more of the details regarding year of introduction, if it was an intentional cross, etc. I don't know if she got the seeds originally from Jessica and might have more details about it or not.

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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#14

Post: # 28733Unread post karstopography
Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:11 am

Color seems to have a impact of flavor. How ripe a tomato gets before you slice it, that impacts the flavor. There might be a tendency to slice them too early before they are really ripe, but then some people like them more green.

Texture, some tomatoes have a melting texture, some are more firm.

One thing that strikes me about people here talking about tomatoes on this site is how they really don’t like this or that tomato, they spit them out or whatever. I can’t remember ever having a garden tomato that was so bad I wanted to spit it out. I have cut them too green, but not so green I wouldn’t enjoy eating it. But to say a tomato that came out of the garden was so bad or tasteless that it wasn’t worth eating, this is a foreign concept to me.

I have had a mealy, store bought tomato that was pretty much inedible. Mealy paired with tomato or an apple is never a good thing. Mushy is another bad descriptor. There are Plenty of store bought romas that verge on mushy. Dry can work both ways. I like a dry tomato on a pizza. Cooks better and all that liquid that could have been in the tomato doesn’t leach out and spoil the crust. Try doing a thin crust no sauce pizza with a moist slicer and it becomes a soggy mess. The Roma and San Marzano tomatoes I grew were pretty dry, unlike a store bought Roma which is typically very wet, at least around here.

Some people can’t stand a lot of acid in their tomatoes. My mom likes yellow tomatoes, red ones apparently are too acidic by and large. She loved my Lemon boy tomatoes and liked the bicolor Pineapple and Hillbilly. She also liked top gun, a red hybrid, so I don’t know, maybe it’s more than the color.

It is fascinating to hear and read about the multitude of varieties and sub varieties and strains. I could see where a tasting would be interesting. Lots of varieties all in one place to try. What are there 5,000 plus documented varieties? Wonder who has tried the most varieties ever? There must be people, probably here, that have had into the hundreds. Anyone have a number they care to share? I don’t think I’ve have had more than 30 or 40, if that.
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#15

Post: # 28753Unread post MissS
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:23 am

Shule wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:57 pm @Sue_CT
Although Marsha loves and has promoted Girl Girl's Weird Thing, it was discovered by a dog named Girl Girl, owned by Jessica Hughes (who is jessleigh of Tomatoville). I'm a bit confused as to whether she lived in Canada, California (San Martin), or somewhere else at the time, though. I'm guessing California is correct and my other sources confused its abbreviation with Canada or something. It sounds like it was a sport of Green Zebra (not an accidental cross); it was the only tomato on the plant like it, I understand. I remember reading an old thread on Gardenweb where Jessica was looking for ideas on what to name it (and where she declared what she named it), if my memory serves me, but I couldn't find the post when I looked for it recently. The oldest reference I see to it is 15 May 2014, on helpfulgardener.com, but I think it's at least somewhat older than that. However, a TV thread lets us know that it was introduced in 2012, if it's correct.
Thank you Shule. Yes Jessica and her tomato loving dog who are from California discovered this tomato. My seed came directly from Jessica way back when she first offered it. The envelope that they arrived in came from California. Marsha grew this tomato and loved it. She put it in her annual seed offer to help distribute it with great success.
~ Patti ~

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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#16

Post: # 28769Unread post wykvlvr
Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:28 am

Glad someone mentioned Lemon Boy, It is a yellow hybrid that in my opinion everyone should try at least once...
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goodloe
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#17

Post: # 28800Unread post goodloe
Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:57 pm

Interesting topic, [mention]Barmaley[/mention] ...

I grow hybrids for their production and disease (nematode) resistance, mainly Big Beef and Roman Warrior. We can/freeze a LOT of tomatoes for later use, and for salsa. Both these hybrids are great for our purposes. I try to grow 5-8 different OP varieties every year, in containers. There's hardly anything that compares taste-wise with a fresh Sudduth Brandywine, or Rebel Yell. Girl Girl's Weird Thing is definitely on my grow list for 2021!!
I have 2 seasons: Tomato and pepper season, and BAMA Football season!

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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#18

Post: # 28811Unread post Barmaley
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:05 pm

karstopography wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:11 am

One thing that strikes me about people here talking about tomatoes on this site is how they really don’t like this or that tomato, they spit them out or whatever. I can’t remember ever having a garden tomato that was so bad I wanted to spit it out. I have cut them too green, but not so green I wouldn’t enjoy eating it. But to say a tomato that came out of the garden was so bad or tasteless that it wasn’t worth eating, this is a foreign concept to me.

I am very glad that you brought this point. I remember reading terrifying stories about attempts to stabilize hybrids. People said that F3, F4 etc may produce ugly fruits which will taste as rotten potato. Then I decided never try to experiment with hybrid off-springs. But something told me that it sound very odd since I never heard before as well as I never experienced a disgusting tomatoes (if we will not consider $0.99 tomatoes in local supermarkets on the East Cost as disgusting but will label them as tasteless). I hunch was that the parents somehow were also tomatoes and may not be the best but at least OK tomatoes. The seeding companies may try to disseminate rumors that off-springs could be a disaster for obvious reason. What is the real story about about hybrid F3, F4 etc?

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Sue_CT
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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#19

Post: # 28814Unread post Sue_CT
Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:31 pm

I have only once ever experienced a "spitter". It was a large potted Big Boy tomato I bought at a farmers market that already had tomatoes on it in April, in the hopes of getting at least one plant that gave me fruit significantly earlier than I could accomplish in Connecticut on my own. I remember being astonished that anyone had tomatoes that large and developed that early around here. I am sure I paid dearly for it. It was mealy, mushy, and at least tasteless. I remember the taste as actually being mildly bad. I threw it out. I have since learned that that type of tomato texture can come from tomato plants grown in too cold temps, and the taste reminicent of late fall tomatoes that I have tried to use from plants I kept limping along way too late into the cold weather.

So I guess, I understand the "spitter". But one plant in well over 20 years isn't that bad. Some people seem to label any tomato that isn't on their favorites list as spitters. I have much broader tolerance. But I don't have to be tolerant of the ones coming out of my own garden. I can grow only my favovrites for however long they last. :)

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Re: Hybrids for hobbyists

#20

Post: # 28821Unread post MissS
Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:27 pm

I have had only one tomato that I actually spit right out and then went and pulled the plant out as well. It was labeled as Big Beef when this variety was first released. I picked a beautiful red tomato off the vine and had myself a big bite. Yuk. I spit it out and tried another. That one was just as bad. My sister tried it and hated it too so we pulled the plants right then and there.
After years of hearing great reviews for the Big Beef tomato, I have grown it again this year. Thank goodness it tastes nothing like the one that I had so many years ago. It is not my favorite for taste. It does not come close to my best tasting OP's but it is a whole lot better than my first experience with it. I think that what I grew back then was something that was mis-labeled. I am happy that I have tried growing Big Beef again.
~ Patti ~

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