Intense Pigment

Share your breeding experiments and crosses you're working on
User avatar
Daniel Ricks
Reactions: 14
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:39 am
Location: UT, USA
Contact:

Intense Pigment

#1

Post: # 32098Unread post Daniel Ricks
Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:51 am

Does anyone have experience with growing tomatoes with Intense Pigment (Ip) genetics, or know where/how I could access seeds for a variety with Ip? Based on what I've learned about it, I'm hoping to explore using it in an amateur breeding project. I know the TGRC has some accessions with Ip introgressed from a wild relative, but of course they specify that their germplasm isn't available to non-researcher-amateur breeders. I've tried searching the GRIN, but haven't found anything yet, although perhaps I just haven't gotten good enough searching that database. I would really appreciate the opportunity to purchase, trade or receive seeds from any of you that may have access to lines with Ip in them.

More on Ip. This is one of the 'high pigment' genes, that causes a darker leaf color, a darker color of unripe fruits, and higher carotenoid levels, among other things. Ip shows dominant inheritance, while three of the other high pigment genes are recessive (hp1, hp2, and dg). However, compared to hp1, hp2, and dg, Ip is said to have a more moderate phenotype, not as dark and not as consistently dark as these others.

hp1 interested me the most at first, until I learned about the negative effects that hp1, hp2, and dg have all had on seedling mortality, brittle stems, reduced growth and yield. BUT here's the thing: Ip is reported to Not have those negative effects, and so even if it doesn't have as pronounced or as consistently high pigment as the other high pigment genes, it seems like there would actually be a hope of generating a healthy plant with it with somewhat darker fruit and higher carotenoids.

I'm somewhat baffled by how Ip seems to have largely been ignored compared to hp1, hp2, and dg. With searches, you'll find a Lot more information on these other 3, where in the beginning of the researchers' work, they acknowledge that there is another one called Ip but that it doesn't produce as pronounced of an effect and then they move onto other experiments with only the top candidates like hp2, despite the terrible pleiotropic effects. It seems like it gets lost in people's desire for the extreme. I say I'm baffled, but then I need to include myself in that because I remember a time reading a paper that dealt with these genes, and I remember consciously blowing past the mention of Ip in favor of learning about the more extreme ones like hp1.

Thoughts? Experiences? Ideas on how I can get a hold of some seeds to try out? Thanks in advance for any insight you can give.

(Throwing on a couple of files that I see that I've previously saved:)
Ip Introgression.pdf
(29.44 MiB) Downloaded 2 times
MicroTom with Ip.pdf
(4.45 MiB) Downloaded 3 times
1

Rockoe10
Reactions: 32
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:36 am
Contact:

Re: Intense Pigment

#2

Post: # 32148Unread post Rockoe10
Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:01 pm

Very interesting. I had never heard of this till now.

Thinking about the oddity this past garden season, i had one plant that had very dark green unripe fruit, every other variety i grew had the lighter green unripe fruit. The leaves also looked darker and more healthy.

I didn't think too much of it at the time, but perhaps this is the ip you're referring to?

The variety that expressed this trait was the "Money Maker" from MIGardener. His site is the same name (links and what not in the forum are finiky).

I purchased them in the Fall of 2018, not sure if that will matter, but sometimes crosses occur that are unintentional, then sent to consumers.

I recommend trying their Money Maker and see if that is what you are looking for. You'll get them for 50¢ during the off season.

PS
The ripe fruit was like neon red. This has to be what you are talking about.
1
- - - - - - - -
Rob ZONE 6A

Rockoe10
Reactions: 32
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:36 am
Contact:

Re: Intense Pigment

#3

Post: # 32149Unread post Rockoe10
Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:12 pm

20200731_165250.jpg
20200731_165250.jpg (4.05 MiB) Viewed 280 times
Above are the darker fruit.
20200731_164855.jpg
20200731_164855.jpg (3.62 MiB) Viewed 280 times
These are the lighter fruit. All my varieties were this way
20200813_101934.jpg
20200813_101934.jpg (3.35 MiB) Viewed 280 times
In this photo, you see the dark color green, as the red starts to show in the bottom.
20200823_130757.jpg
20200823_130757.jpg (257.58 KiB) Viewed 280 times
This is a group of many of my varieties, all ripe. The Money Maker are the smaller kinds. They have a much deeper and more vibrant red.
0
- - - - - - - -
Rob ZONE 6A

User avatar
Daniel Ricks
Reactions: 14
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:39 am
Location: UT, USA
Contact:

Re: Intense Pigment

#4

Post: # 32193Unread post Daniel Ricks
Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:48 am

@Rockoe10 Wow, that is quite the difference! Thanks for the tip, I checked out MIGardener's site and they are out of MoneyMaker for now, but I put myself on their waitlist. So if I understood correctly, only some of the seeds that you had gotten in Fall 2018 turned out to have the smaller, darker fruit, while others of the seeds produced the lighter larger fruit?
0

User avatar
Bower
Reactions: 1002
Posts: 1511
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:44 pm
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Contact:

Re: Intense Pigment

#5

Post: # 32196Unread post Bower
Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:37 am

This is the first time I've ever heard of Ip (unless I forgot it).
But dark green shoulders in immature fruit is a fairly common and well known trait that people look for, exactly because it does indicate the intensity of color (and often taste) since all that chlorophyll is converted to lycopene as it ripens. It's often been touted as a genetic difference between heirlooms and their progeny vs those which came from commercial breeding programs. I think the absence of green shoulders may be quite common in those cv's designed for mass production and mechanical harvest, however I haven't grown those so can't personally give examples.
Is it possible that Ip is a common trait and wasn't pursued because it is widespread? Maybe, maybe not.
One thing though, it is useful to know and to watch for those dark green colors.
I will qualify by adding that IME environmental conditions can play a big role in the green shoulder too. I'll mention Moravsky Div as an example, which always has dark green shoulders before ripening, but which was notably darker than usual in a cool and rainy (low sun) season - they were also especially tasty that year. So you might select for the darkest green one year, and find it is not so impressive the next. It will still be there though.
In OP tomatoes I've mostly noticed that some yellow and orange fruit don't develop the prominent green, or they lose it as they enlarge before ripening and become pale green all over. I speculate this might be due to pigment differences, but maybe not necessarily. I do have some yellow lines that have the dark shoulders - they are quite unevenly colored at maturity with noticeable intense pigment at the stem end. So it may be possible that other yellow and orange fruit I observed, were actually lacking that Ip allele.
Ultimately when we breed our own vegetables we're selecting for adaptations to our environment, wherever we are. I might select for pigment intensity that is expressed in one set of conditions cool and wet, but OTOH you might find other lines that express the same trait better in eg the warmth of North Carolina. So there is no end of opportunity to tailor your choices to fit your specific needs. :)
0
AgCan Zone 5a/USDA zone 4
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm

Rockoe10
Reactions: 32
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:36 am
Contact:

Re: Intense Pigment

#6

Post: # 32206Unread post Rockoe10
Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:41 am

Daniel Ricks wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:48 am
@Rockoe10 Wow, that is quite the difference! Thanks for the tip, I checked out MIGardener's site and they are out of MoneyMaker for now, but I put myself on their waitlist. So if I understood correctly, only some of the seeds that you had gotten in Fall 2018 turned out to have the smaller, darker fruit, while others of the seeds produced the lighter larger fruit?
Correct. After germination, I selected the two strongest seedlings to put in my garden. One of them turned out to be this darker one. It grew the fastest, the strongest and prettiest. Up until the heat hit. It did not do well in the heat. In the end, I didn't save any seeds from the fruit. The fruit were smaller than its sibling, and I didn't think anything of the dark green traits, at that time. Fortunately, I do have a couple seeds remaining in storage from that first purchase in 2018. I may try to grow them again and see if I can find this trait again.

If I do, I'll be sure to let you know. And if you haven't gotten any by that time, you are welcome to them. But no guarantees 😬
0
- - - - - - - -
Rob ZONE 6A

User avatar
Daniel Ricks
Reactions: 14
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:39 am
Location: UT, USA
Contact:

Re: Intense Pigment

#7

Post: # 32287Unread post Daniel Ricks
Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:54 am

Sorry for not responding sooner, you two!

Bower wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:37 am
This is the first time I've ever heard of Ip (unless I forgot it).
But dark green shoulders in immature fruit is a fairly common and well known trait that people look for, exactly because it does indicate the intensity of color (and often taste) since all that chlorophyll is converted to lycopene as it ripens. It's often been touted as a genetic difference between heirlooms and their progeny vs those which came from commercial breeding programs. I think the absence of green shoulders may be quite common in those cv's designed for mass production and mechanical harvest, however I haven't grown those so can't personally give examples.
I think I've read about this. Something called uniform ripening in commercial varieties? It's said to have an impact on reducing flavor, too, but perhaps there are confounding variables with other common traits selected for in large-scale commercial operations.
@Rockoe10 perhaps it was a cross with another variety that had green shoulders/non-uniform ripening, or a stray seed altogether?

Bower wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:37 am
Is it possible that Ip is a common trait and wasn't pursued because it is widespread? Maybe, maybe not.
Definitely possible, I've wondered that myself. If nothing else, perhaps it has already been taken up by a lot of breeders and has become almost ubiquitous in modern commercial releases, more of a trade secret kind of thing. I'm curious to know. The TGRC entries regarding Ip talk about an introgression from a wild species (I think S. chmielewskii).

Bower wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:37 am
In OP tomatoes I've mostly noticed that some yellow and orange fruit don't develop the prominent green, or they lose it as they enlarge before ripening and become pale green all over. I speculate this might be due to pigment differences, but maybe not necessarily. I do have some yellow lines that have the dark shoulders - they are quite unevenly colored at maturity with noticeable intense pigment at the stem end. So it may be possible that other yellow and orange fruit I observed, were actually lacking that Ip allele.
This hadn't registered in my brain until you pointed it out! I looked and saw that my two non-cherry orange varieties this year (Tangella+Caro Rich) definitely do not have dark shoulders, but rather the lighter color spread throughout.

Bower wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:37 am
One thing though, it is useful to know and to watch for those dark green colors.
I will qualify by adding that IME environmental conditions can play a big role in the green shoulder too. I'll mention Moravsky Div as an example, which always has dark green shoulders before ripening, but which was notably darker than usual in a cool and rainy (low sun) season - they were also especially tasty that year. So you might select for the darkest green one year, and find it is not so impressive the next. It will still be there though.
Bower wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:37 am
Ultimately when we breed our own vegetables we're selecting for adaptations to our environment, wherever we are. I might select for pigment intensity that is expressed in one set of conditions cool and wet, but OTOH you might find other lines that express the same trait better in eg the warmth of North Carolina. So there is no end of opportunity to tailor your choices to fit your specific needs. :)
Interesting. I'll keep that in mind.. thank goodness for the ability to save seed!

Rockoe10 wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:41 am
If I do, I'll be sure to let you know. And if you haven't gotten any by that time, you are welcome to them. But no guarantees 😬
If you do, thanks! No pressure though, if it doesn't fit with your plans/doesn't work out. We'll get to the bottom of this! I'll plan on reporting back anything else I find out.
1

Post Reply

Return to “Tomato Crossing/Breeding”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest