NEVER SAY NEVER

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Growing Coastal
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NEVER SAY NEVER

#1

Post: # 38213Unread post Growing Coastal
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:47 pm

I found some 10 year old winter broad bean seeds I had saved. When I put them in the ground in Oct/Nov. I didn't really think they would grow being so old. I've read that bean seeds don't keep well.
I was surprised when I saw them up already but our weather has been mild lately. Only a few have come up, so far.

Image



I also noticed that the elephant garlic is sprouting on the old flower heads as it does every winter. When they do this I scatter them where I want them. The seeds are still in the old flower husk which is black. When sprouted they fall off readily. I always leave some to bloom for hummingbirds to feed on, and they look nice mixed in with flowers.

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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#2

Post: # 38217Unread post TLC333
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:26 pm

I think this is what I love most about growing. Some want to make it about rules and boundaries. If we let nature take its course.....it can surprise us. Will you grow out your beans and save more seeds? Are these old genetics?
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#3

Post: # 38234Unread post Growing Coastal
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:32 am

I do plan on saving seeds if the plants come to fruition. Sometimes even when old seeds germinate the plants aren't strong.
I have no idea about the lineage of this bean and cannot find it when searching so, yes, maybe old genetics too. I hadn't thought about that. My seeds were saved from the garden after a few years of growing them so they've been around for a while.

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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#4

Post: # 38245Unread post rxkeith
Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:53 pm

beans, or i should say some beans have a fairly long shelf life.
i have some fava beans that are pretty old too. i'll say they are between
10 and 15 yrs old. germination was still above 50% when i planted them
a couple years ago. a seed not planted is guaranteed not to grow.
i also have pole bean seeds several years old i sometimes forget about that
give decent germination, and growth. some other bush beans i have had
germinated poorly when just a few years old.



keith

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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#5

Post: # 38247Unread post Bower
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:19 pm

Having seeds that can still germinate years later is a great trait, as far as I'm concerned. Great idea to save these and keep growing em! You never know if the day may come when you're so glad to plant that ol seed from the back of the cupboard and get a plant!!
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#6

Post: # 38376Unread post Shule
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:21 pm

Growing Coastal wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:47 pm

I also noticed that the elephant garlic is sprouting on the old flower heads as it does every winter. When they do this I scatter them where I want them. The seeds are still in the old flower husk which is black. When sprouted they fall off readily. I always leave some to bloom for hummingbirds to feed on, and they look nice mixed in with flowers.

Image
You just answered a longstanding question I've had: Does elephant garlic have seeds (as leeks do) or bulbils in the flowerheads (as garlic does)? Looks like it has seeds. It's a shame no one's selling seeds (to my knowledge).
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#7

Post: # 38410Unread post rxkeith
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:01 am

elephant garlic is a misnomer.
it is in the leek family, so i would expect it to have seeds.
growing elephant garlic from seed might be a multi year process
before you get those large cloves. many gardeners may not want to
wait that long to harvest full size bulbs. i have not grown elephant
garlic, only garlic garlic.

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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#8

Post: # 38412Unread post MrBig46
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:44 am

Shule wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:21 pm
Growing Coastal wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:47 pm

I also noticed that the elephant garlic is sprouting on the old flower heads as it does every winter. When they do this I scatter them where I want them. The seeds are still in the old flower husk which is black. When sprouted they fall off readily. I always leave some to bloom for hummingbirds to feed on, and they look nice mixed in with flowers.

Image
You just answered a longstanding question I've had: Does elephant garlic have seeds (as leeks do) or bulbils in the flowerheads (as garlic does)? Looks like it has seeds. It's a shame no one's selling seeds (to my knowledge).
I'm also interested in the elephant garlic. What does it look like and taste like normal garlic? I've read about it many times on Tomatoville, but it never occurred to me that it could be grown from seed, which would probably be the only option for me.
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#9

Post: # 38417Unread post Whwoz
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:15 pm

Elephant garlic, or Allium ampeloprasum, is like a mild garlic. It is actually closer to a leek, but garlic flavoured. Generally 5 or 6 cloves per bulb, but can form large rounds, indeed some clones seem to alternate between rounds one year and cloves the next. Often will have "bulbils" up to one centimetre across around the outside of a clove. Most strains flower readily, but do not always set seed. Flowering does not reduce bulb size, as it can do with most garlic. I have attached a couple of photos showing bulbils and size of largest bulb last season, tag is 125mm long overall. This particular clone can get upto 15cm across.
Johnston Creek Garleek.jpg
Johnston Creek Garleek.jpg (389.7 KiB) Viewed 233 times
Johnston Creek garleek 2.jpg
Johnston Creek garleek 2.jpg (395.43 KiB) Viewed 233 times

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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#10

Post: # 38498Unread post Growing Coastal
Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:33 am

MrBig46 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:44 am
Shule wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:21 pm
Growing Coastal wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:47 pm

I also noticed that the elephant garlic is sprouting on the old flower heads as it does every winter. When they do this I scatter them where I want them. The seeds are still in the old flower husk which is black. When sprouted they fall off readily. I always leave some to bloom for hummingbirds to feed on, and they look nice mixed in with flowers.

Image
You just answered a longstanding question I've had: Does elephant garlic have seeds (as leeks do) or bulbils in the flowerheads (as garlic does)? Looks like it has seeds. It's a shame no one's selling seeds (to my knowledge).
I'm also interested in the elephant garlic. What does it look like and taste like normal garlic? I've read about it many times on Tomatoville, but it never occurred to me that it could be grown from seed, which would probably be the only option for me.
Vladimír
For many years I thought it was leeks in the garden growing wild while I worked mostly ignoring the garden. At one point I did have both.
Turned out to be Elephant Garleek!
Some say it is not a true garlic but rather, a leek. Others say the opposite. :roll:
Whichever, it grows freely once established.
I did try to take seeds from what appeared to be a mature head in the fall last year. There were a few but not nearly as many as I would expect. Maybe they take longer to mature than I thought? I haven't tried starting any so I don't know if they are viable.
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#11

Post: # 38540Unread post Bower
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:22 pm

I think they would be similar to other leeks - you have to wait at minimum until pods are clearly formed and plump, and ideally if there is time to mature on the plant, you wait to harvest like other alliums, when you see the pods are starting to open and the happy glint of a black seed waiting to tumble out. If they were looking that mature, maybe some seeds had already sprinkled out?
My season is often too short to mature leek seeds in the field by any means, not to mention turning wet! But if they can get to the stage of forming good pods, I can cut the stem about a foot long, and put the whole thing upsidedown in a paper bag, and hang it for a long time, couple of months before they will dry down, but you do get viable seeds eventually if the pods were mature enough, not so many if they were just starting.
One thing I noticed, it is easier to get the seeds out when the pods matured on the plant and were ready to split open. The ones that matured and dried slowly in a bag don't always split open as easily, so it's more of a job to remove the chaff.

The seeds that stayed out on the heads sure look viable! :D Very cool look, the gar-leek with a green head of hair. ;)

I've never even tasted elephant garlic.. rarely seen in the supermarket, at prices some prince would pay :shock: . Must be good stuff.. 8-)
If you do manage to save a head of seeds some year, put me on your list of eager swappers.
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#12

Post: # 38558Unread post Shule
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:46 pm

Growing Coastal wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:33 am

Turned out to be Elephant Garleek!
Some say it is not a true garlic but rather, a leek. Others say the opposite. :roll:
This might clear up the Allium relations a little:
* Garlic is Allium sativum
* Leeks are Allium ampeloprasum, Leek Group
* Elephant garlic is Allium ampeloprasum var. ampeloprasum
* Pearl onions are Allium ampeloprasum var. sectivum
* Wild leeks are Allium ampeloprasum
* Potato onions and shallots are Allium cepa var. aggregatum
* Regular onions and some bunching onions are Allium cepa
* Welsh onions and many bunching onions are Allium fistulosum
* Chives are Allium schoenoprasum
* Garlic chives are Allium tuberosum
* Egyptian walking onions are said to be a cross between Allium cepa and Allium fistulosum, but I don't think we know for sure
* Chinese onions are Allium chinense

There might be updates to this data, as I gathered it many months ago.
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#13

Post: # 38572Unread post MrBig46
Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:32 am

Bower wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:22 pm
I think they would be similar to other leeks - you have to wait at minimum until pods are clearly formed and plump, and ideally if there is time to mature on the plant, you wait to harvest like other alliums, when you see the pods are starting to open and the happy glint of a black seed waiting to tumble out. If they were looking that mature, maybe some seeds had already sprinkled out?
My season is often too short to mature leek seeds in the field by any means, not to mention turning wet! But if they can get to the stage of forming good pods, I can cut the stem about a foot long, and put the whole thing upsidedown in a paper bag, and hang it for a long time, couple of months before they will dry down, but you do get viable seeds eventually if the pods were mature enough, not so many if they were just starting.
One thing I noticed, it is easier to get the seeds out when the pods matured on the plant and were ready to split open. The ones that matured and dried slowly in a bag don't always split open as easily, so it's more of a job to remove the chaff.

The seeds that stayed out on the heads sure look viable! :D Very cool look, the gar-leek with a green head of hair. ;)

I've never even tasted elephant garlic.. rarely seen in the supermarket, at prices some prince would pay :shock: . Must be good stuff.. 8-)
If you do manage to save a head of seeds some year, put me on your list of eager swappers.
I would also like to try sometime in the future.
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#14

Post: # 38574Unread post Whwoz
Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:04 am

Think of the taste of garlic without the heat burst at the start. Could easily be mistaken for some of the milder garlic, but cloves can be upto 4 cm across and rounds to 6 cm.
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#15

Post: # 38615Unread post Growing Coastal
Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:56 am

Recently a friend whose husband now grows EG told me she sliced up a large round and used them on sandwiches. Mild and delicious she said.
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#16

Post: # 38694Unread post MrBig46
Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:57 am

I started to wonder where I could get cloves of elephant garlic. Surprisingly, the only farm that sells this garlic for planting is in the small village where my friend lives (coincidence). One clove costs 50 crowns, one pacibulka 10 crowns. It's quite expensive, I have to decide what to buy. I still have to consult with that friend. When is elephant garlic planted?
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#17

Post: # 38697Unread post Whwoz
Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:03 am

I plant mine with the turban garlic, around March in the Southern hemisphere, not sure for you
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#18

Post: # 38717Unread post Growing Coastal
Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:40 am

MrBig46 wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:57 am
I started to wonder where I could get cloves of elephant garlic. Surprisingly, the only farm that sells this garlic for planting is in the small village where my friend lives (coincidence). One clove costs 50 crowns, one pacibulka 10 crowns. It's quite expensive, I have to decide what to buy. I still have to consult with that friend. When is elephant garlic planted?
Vladimír
It is planted at the same time as regular garlic, in the fall. When I leave the smaller plants in the garden they die back over summer and re emerge in the late fall/winter. Same if I dig them out and put them in a pot. Then I can plant the rounds where I want them in autumn.
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#19

Post: # 38722Unread post MrBig46
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:00 pm

If they're betting in the fall, it's too late now. I guess I'll have to give it up. :(
Vladimír
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Re: NEVER SAY NEVER

#20

Post: # 38781Unread post MrBig46
Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:20 am

Whwoz wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:15 pm
Elephant garlic, or Allium ampeloprasum, is like a mild garlic. It is actually closer to a leek, but garlic flavoured. Generally 5 or 6 cloves per bulb, but can form large rounds, indeed some clones seem to alternate between rounds one year and cloves the next. Often will have "bulbils" up to one centimetre across around the outside of a clove. Most strains flower readily, but do not always set seed. Flowering does not reduce bulb size, as it can do with most garlic. I have attached a couple of photos showing bulbils and size of largest bulb last season, tag is 125mm long overall. This particular clone can get upto 15cm across.

Johnston Creek Garleek.jpg
Johnston Creek garleek 2.jpg
Have you ever tried to grow them from the seeds of that flower?
Vladimír
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