Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
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Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
More details to come. (Is the pic right side up?)
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Last edited by MsCowpea on Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:48 am, edited 8 times in total.
"When we kill off the natural enemies of a pest we inherit their work."
Carl Huffaker
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
I wanted to see if there was a difference in flavor when using organic fertilizer vs conventional fertilizer in an Earthbox.
I had always been told and read that a plant can’t tell the difference between nutrient sources. Yield wasn’t my primary interest. Curious for myself, not to convince anyone of anything. Did this about 5 years ago.
My expectation was that I probably wouldn’t notice any great difference given everything I had been told.
I set up it up this way.
Mix: 2 parts Fafard 3 B (not available for the last 2 years) Mainly bark and peat. (My favorite mix for years.)
1 part Fafard Soil Conditioner (100% fine bark)
Dolomite (approx) 1 cup each box. (Correction)
Number one: Synthetic 2 cups 7-7-7 Earthbox replant kit ( applied as strip on top)
Number two: 3 cups Earthbox Organic Fertilizer ( I think it was 8-3-5). Mixed thru-out.
Number three: synthetic 2 cups 7-7-7 Earthbox replant kit plus 2 tbl. Azomite, 4 tbl. Humid Acid
3 MOMOTAROS
BLIND TEST with Just me. Huge Difference. One was excellent. Delicious flavor. Superior to other 2.
Not even close. ORGANIC
I decided to get a few more people. Got 4 friends to come over. Again they needed one bite and no time whatsoever to know instantly which was Superior in flavor. Again ORGANIC. No indecision, not even close.
Maybe there are conventional fertilizers where the results would be different. This is my own little small experiment . Not trying to push a point of view Or advocate for any particular method. This only applies to the inputs I used in a CONTAINER (not inground).
I can get the organic fertilizer in large bags much cheaper than small replant kits . Also use other brands as well.
I had always been told and read that a plant can’t tell the difference between nutrient sources. Yield wasn’t my primary interest. Curious for myself, not to convince anyone of anything. Did this about 5 years ago.
My expectation was that I probably wouldn’t notice any great difference given everything I had been told.
I set up it up this way.
Mix: 2 parts Fafard 3 B (not available for the last 2 years) Mainly bark and peat. (My favorite mix for years.)
1 part Fafard Soil Conditioner (100% fine bark)
Dolomite (approx) 1 cup each box. (Correction)
Number one: Synthetic 2 cups 7-7-7 Earthbox replant kit ( applied as strip on top)
Number two: 3 cups Earthbox Organic Fertilizer ( I think it was 8-3-5). Mixed thru-out.
Number three: synthetic 2 cups 7-7-7 Earthbox replant kit plus 2 tbl. Azomite, 4 tbl. Humid Acid
3 MOMOTAROS
BLIND TEST with Just me. Huge Difference. One was excellent. Delicious flavor. Superior to other 2.
Not even close. ORGANIC
I decided to get a few more people. Got 4 friends to come over. Again they needed one bite and no time whatsoever to know instantly which was Superior in flavor. Again ORGANIC. No indecision, not even close.
Maybe there are conventional fertilizers where the results would be different. This is my own little small experiment . Not trying to push a point of view Or advocate for any particular method. This only applies to the inputs I used in a CONTAINER (not inground).
I can get the organic fertilizer in large bags much cheaper than small replant kits . Also use other brands as well.
Last edited by MsCowpea on Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
"When we kill off the natural enemies of a pest we inherit their work."
Carl Huffaker
Carl Huffaker
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
I wish I had done a box with both inputs. To see if the flavor would still be great and the yield increased.
I have a few going right now with a combo treatment.
Anybody else do any experimenting?
I have a few going right now with a combo treatment.
Anybody else do any experimenting?
"When we kill off the natural enemies of a pest we inherit their work."
Carl Huffaker
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
Wow - those look like TREES growing! Do you need a ladder to pick your tomatoes?
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
Susie, I did need a ladder because I put them up on that trailer. But it’s so easy to spray and pick off diseased leaves
When they are elevated. My idol (Charles Wilber) grew 27 feet tall tomato plants —now that’s tall.
When they are elevated. My idol (Charles Wilber) grew 27 feet tall tomato plants —now that’s tall.
"When we kill off the natural enemies of a pest we inherit their work."
Carl Huffaker
Carl Huffaker
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
I only use 1/2 cup dolomite to replenish, and 1 cup if new mix.
- Marsha
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
Mscowpea, do you think the organic fert was also better cuz you spread it out, rather than a strip if I'm reading this right? Has anyone else also spread ferts rather than applying as a strip?
Zone 10, Southern California
Will eat anything once before I judge.
Anything meaning any foods of course.
Will eat anything once before I judge.
Anything meaning any foods of course.
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
Marsha, I will have to correct that . It would be about 1 cup per box. I used the packs that Earthbox sells to make
sure there was no issue with what I used. When I took the setup workshop at Earthbox they Said to use just 1/3 of that small pack of dolomite when you replant. That’s probably 1/3 to 1/2 cup (what you use).
I had the used mix of 2 earthboxes tested for pH after just one use. (Not with this experiment). It was 7.3 pH in a box I used 8-3-5 and the same 7.3 pH in a box I used 5-10-10. But many many years ago I had one come out at 3 something , which would make more sense as the mix is supposed to become more acidic over time. I lived at a different place with different water.
Peebee, I am not sure. The Earthbox was scientifically designed to be used with a strip using synthetic fertilizer. I did always mix in the organic fertilizer throughout (that was what they said to do in the very beginning) but for the last couple years I have sometimes mixed some, strip some in the same box.
Even though Earthbox says don’t use pine bark in the box it all boils down to ‘does it wick properly?’ I wanted a mix that
Didn’t hold so much water because of the flavor impacts of overwatering. Plus not break down so much since I was using
Organic fertilizer. I found I could use increasing amounts of pine bark. Again I don’t know if any of this helps with my
suppositions. Now I can’t get the fine bark anyway. Or even Fafard 3B. I did find a substitution.
Just as an ‘aside’ —I went to a tomato tasting event (Ca) , tried 170 varieties. You know what was the most SUBLIME,
Delicious tomato I tried??? It wasn’t at the event . It was a dry farmed Earl Girl I got at a grocery store in Berkeley.
How much you water means everything.
I never reused the mix over the years. I didn’t like the results as well but really should have tried to do it more. But We used to do sometimes as many as 70 black containers so we would use the used EB mix mixed with compost in those. Plus we have inground garden.
I was lucky enough to catch Blake Whisenant (inventor of EB) at the EB research center one time. While conversing I told him I didn’t reuse my mix. He was aghast. Said I was wasting money and that they had some earthboxes going on their 7th year using it twice a year at that. He also preferred synthetic fertilizer as it worked better. I still want to try and figure out organic inputs.
sure there was no issue with what I used. When I took the setup workshop at Earthbox they Said to use just 1/3 of that small pack of dolomite when you replant. That’s probably 1/3 to 1/2 cup (what you use).
I had the used mix of 2 earthboxes tested for pH after just one use. (Not with this experiment). It was 7.3 pH in a box I used 8-3-5 and the same 7.3 pH in a box I used 5-10-10. But many many years ago I had one come out at 3 something , which would make more sense as the mix is supposed to become more acidic over time. I lived at a different place with different water.
Peebee, I am not sure. The Earthbox was scientifically designed to be used with a strip using synthetic fertilizer. I did always mix in the organic fertilizer throughout (that was what they said to do in the very beginning) but for the last couple years I have sometimes mixed some, strip some in the same box.
Even though Earthbox says don’t use pine bark in the box it all boils down to ‘does it wick properly?’ I wanted a mix that
Didn’t hold so much water because of the flavor impacts of overwatering. Plus not break down so much since I was using
Organic fertilizer. I found I could use increasing amounts of pine bark. Again I don’t know if any of this helps with my
suppositions. Now I can’t get the fine bark anyway. Or even Fafard 3B. I did find a substitution.
Just as an ‘aside’ —I went to a tomato tasting event (Ca) , tried 170 varieties. You know what was the most SUBLIME,
Delicious tomato I tried??? It wasn’t at the event . It was a dry farmed Earl Girl I got at a grocery store in Berkeley.
How much you water means everything.
I never reused the mix over the years. I didn’t like the results as well but really should have tried to do it more. But We used to do sometimes as many as 70 black containers so we would use the used EB mix mixed with compost in those. Plus we have inground garden.
I was lucky enough to catch Blake Whisenant (inventor of EB) at the EB research center one time. While conversing I told him I didn’t reuse my mix. He was aghast. Said I was wasting money and that they had some earthboxes going on their 7th year using it twice a year at that. He also preferred synthetic fertilizer as it worked better. I still want to try and figure out organic inputs.
"When we kill off the natural enemies of a pest we inherit their work."
Carl Huffaker
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
I'll reply more later, but on new mix, I use very little dolomite lime, and on the combo (old/new) I don't add any. But I use a ton of crab shells (Neptune's Harvest) and will mix in quite a bit when I'm solarizing the mix. I do dump my EB to another when solarizing; I also added in Rice Hulls.
Wow - that's good to know potting mix lasting 7 years.....
Wow - that's good to know potting mix lasting 7 years.....
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
Barb - I have never fully replaced my potting mix. Way longer than 7 years. Shells take a very long time to dissolve. Dont crab shells take a long time too?Barb_FL wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:43 pm I'll reply more later, but on new mix, I use very little dolomite lime, and on the combo (old/new) I don't add any. But I use a ton of crab shells (Neptune's Harvest) and will mix in quite a bit when I'm solarizing the mix. I do dump my EB to another when solarizing; I also added in Rice Hulls.
Wow - that's good to know potting mix lasting 7 years.....
- Marsha
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
Crab Shells - I'm sure they do and neptune's harvests look like they took a hammer to it; some are large pieces other smaller but nothing is ground down. I put them when I solarize and line the entire bottom of the root pouches even though most are on slabs. Down to Earth has Crab Meal that is ground up.
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I watched the Earthbox Cover video on You-tube. I really liked the tie-off method - what is the name of the plastic(?) row cover that he used? I did the tuck method once on a couple of EB, and it was exactly like he said - weeds in the edges.
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I watched the Earthbox Cover video on You-tube. I really liked the tie-off method - what is the name of the plastic(?) row cover that he used? I did the tuck method once on a couple of EB, and it was exactly like he said - weeds in the edges.
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
Here's my Organic vs other observation. Actually it is more of the 'feed your soil to feed your plants' comparison.
Two seasons ago (not counting the current season) - so '17/18, I tried using this 'Water Only' organic super soil
https://detroitnutrientcompany.com/coll ... -only-soil
I had 2 EB : 2 plants in each. 2 tomato plants - and 2 control plants - all same variety / age / same sun exposure / same everything. They said you only needed to 'water only'. - The 2 control plants - ProMix / Tomato Tone / and then added liquid Tomato Food as Plant matured
Everything was equal for awhile. Then the Super Soil plants started having issues - looked like Foliage problems - none of my other plants had foliage issues. After they weren't thriving / getting better, I gave them liquid nutrients and the issues / leaves, etc cleared up. So it probably wasn't foliage at all, but nutrient deficiencies.
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Year 2 of experiment (last year): Bought it again: On the 'Water Only' soil, I would top feed it 'teas' to feed those microbes - really good stuff from the hydro store on a regular basis, and then even later Neptune's Harvest Tomato Food from the top.
One of the plants in the Water Only Soil was a Damsel; the other was a determinate. Both plants did great until the first set of fruit. The other Damsel's I had were strong producers and set through June.
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Year 3 - this season - I'm thinking of trying the experiment in a root pouch. I spoke with the owner of the company - sent him pictures (on Year 1), and told him about year 2 - I think our season is just too long and the 'soil' doesn't have 'enough' - just like IMHO Tomato Tone in an EB doesn't have 'enough' after awhile when plants get large.
===
The Super Soil is really nice but $$$$$
Two seasons ago (not counting the current season) - so '17/18, I tried using this 'Water Only' organic super soil
https://detroitnutrientcompany.com/coll ... -only-soil
I had 2 EB : 2 plants in each. 2 tomato plants - and 2 control plants - all same variety / age / same sun exposure / same everything. They said you only needed to 'water only'. - The 2 control plants - ProMix / Tomato Tone / and then added liquid Tomato Food as Plant matured
Everything was equal for awhile. Then the Super Soil plants started having issues - looked like Foliage problems - none of my other plants had foliage issues. After they weren't thriving / getting better, I gave them liquid nutrients and the issues / leaves, etc cleared up. So it probably wasn't foliage at all, but nutrient deficiencies.
------------
Year 2 of experiment (last year): Bought it again: On the 'Water Only' soil, I would top feed it 'teas' to feed those microbes - really good stuff from the hydro store on a regular basis, and then even later Neptune's Harvest Tomato Food from the top.
One of the plants in the Water Only Soil was a Damsel; the other was a determinate. Both plants did great until the first set of fruit. The other Damsel's I had were strong producers and set through June.
----
Year 3 - this season - I'm thinking of trying the experiment in a root pouch. I spoke with the owner of the company - sent him pictures (on Year 1), and told him about year 2 - I think our season is just too long and the 'soil' doesn't have 'enough' - just like IMHO Tomato Tone in an EB doesn't have 'enough' after awhile when plants get large.
===
The Super Soil is really nice but $$$$$
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
Elaine - Loved your post above and your plants on the flat bed look fantastic. Was that in Fl?
What potting mix are you using now?
What potting mix are you using now?
- PlainJane
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
Barb, do you see any issues with animals going after your containers because of the crab shells?Barb_FL wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:43 pm I'll reply more later, but on new mix, I use very little dolomite lime, and on the combo (old/new) I don't add any. But I use a ton of crab shells (Neptune's Harvest) and will mix in quite a bit when I'm solarizing the mix. I do dump my EB to another when solarizing; I also added in Rice Hulls.
Wow - that's good to know potting mix lasting 7 years.....
I’ve started using crab shell (sparingly) in my grow bags but the aroma is pretty potent for a while.
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
I don't use EB but I do make my own organic fertilizer using compost.
I never thought about this before but can you make compost in FL or does it get infected with nematodes?
I never thought about this before but can you make compost in FL or does it get infected with nematodes?
- Ginger2778
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
People make it. Good question about the nematodes and I have no idea! Youre not supposed to use it in earthboxes, clogs the wicking they say.
Last edited by Ginger2778 on Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Marsha
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
I ordered the non-organic fert with my earthbox. Where do you buy it separately?
Linda
Linda
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
Many places. Home depot has a large quantity of 10-10-10 for a very inexpensive price. I never but the Earthbox brands of dolomite or fertilizer. Total rip off. I just buy their basic systems 3 at a time, about $30 each.
- Marsha
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes
I would not buy earthbox replant kits normally-they are ridiculously expensive as Marsha mentioned but I picked some up at the research center (which is, I believe a separate entity from earthbox company in PA). I wanted everything measured out for the experiment. I buy Nature Safe 8-5-5 or 8-3-5 in 50 pound bags which I ‘think’ is what Earthbox uses under their own label. I can get it locally.
Barb, you do some interesting experiments. I wish I had bags and bags of crab shells for all my raised beds. it is supposed to help against nematodes. But it is expensive. Plus, I wonder if it would make alkaline soil even more so and my soil already tests out very high for calcium and mg, It sounds interesting to use it in an earthbox though.
Animals, raccoons, in my case love to dig around an earthbox that has organic fertilizer . But a tied down cage over the cover keeps them at bay. If I leave any fertilizer with bone meal, blood meal, etc around the bags are always ripped open.
I don’t know how long to reuse mix. The bottom part(old mix) I think would be pretty broken down after a time —it always worried me it would hold too much water. Not that it wouldn’t work but An earthbox constanly wicks and some mixes would hold more water than others. I have emptied many boxes where the bottom is clogged with roots and yukky mix. But apparently this doesn’t effect reusing it as many people do successfully. I did an experiment in 2015/16 but life got in the way and I couldn’t finish it. I do remember I was comparing 4 different potting mixes. Even though Miracle Gro potting mix did OK in the trial. It was pure mud afterwards. Totally broken down to mushy mush. Hard to believe it would be good to reuse.
Barb, I agree with you on the nutrient deficiencies. Organic fertilizer can max out after a time. This research is on organics in hydroponic greenhouse which is similar to an earthbox. He says the organic fertilizer is done in 45 days. I have gone through a whole season without additions but it may not compare to the yield when synthetic boosters are used. Even a workshop at EB center said if your fertilizer is petering out just put a tbl of miracle Gro down the tube. And this was long before the “snack” was introduced. This year I am experimenting with supplementing but not sure what I will use for the organic ones.
https://ag.umass.edu/greenhouse-floricu ... ertilizers
Elaine
Barb, you do some interesting experiments. I wish I had bags and bags of crab shells for all my raised beds. it is supposed to help against nematodes. But it is expensive. Plus, I wonder if it would make alkaline soil even more so and my soil already tests out very high for calcium and mg, It sounds interesting to use it in an earthbox though.
Animals, raccoons, in my case love to dig around an earthbox that has organic fertilizer . But a tied down cage over the cover keeps them at bay. If I leave any fertilizer with bone meal, blood meal, etc around the bags are always ripped open.
I don’t know how long to reuse mix. The bottom part(old mix) I think would be pretty broken down after a time —it always worried me it would hold too much water. Not that it wouldn’t work but An earthbox constanly wicks and some mixes would hold more water than others. I have emptied many boxes where the bottom is clogged with roots and yukky mix. But apparently this doesn’t effect reusing it as many people do successfully. I did an experiment in 2015/16 but life got in the way and I couldn’t finish it. I do remember I was comparing 4 different potting mixes. Even though Miracle Gro potting mix did OK in the trial. It was pure mud afterwards. Totally broken down to mushy mush. Hard to believe it would be good to reuse.
Barb, I agree with you on the nutrient deficiencies. Organic fertilizer can max out after a time. This research is on organics in hydroponic greenhouse which is similar to an earthbox. He says the organic fertilizer is done in 45 days. I have gone through a whole season without additions but it may not compare to the yield when synthetic boosters are used. Even a workshop at EB center said if your fertilizer is petering out just put a tbl of miracle Gro down the tube. And this was long before the “snack” was introduced. This year I am experimenting with supplementing but not sure what I will use for the organic ones.
https://ag.umass.edu/greenhouse-floricu ... ertilizers
Elaine
Last edited by MsCowpea on Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When we kill off the natural enemies of a pest we inherit their work."
Carl Huffaker
Carl Huffaker