Soldier 37, Alice Roosevelt, Moosolini, and McMurray #10

[karstopography]

Anyone grown any of these tomatoes? I did a search, but nothing helpful came up.

[MissS]

McMurray #10 is a pink PL Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red cross with very good flavor. It was fairly productive and I enjoyed those fruits that I got to taste. It went down with most of my garden from verticillium wilt. I enjoyed it and it deserves another chance in my garden.

[karstopography]

McMurray #10 is a pink PL Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red cross with very good flavor. It was fairly productive and I enjoyed those fruits that I got to taste. It went down with most of my garden from verticillium wilt. I enjoyed it and it deserves another chance in my garden.

I’ve read that about McMurray #10 on a couple of sites. What exactly did it pick up from Neves Azorean Red? The descriptions I have read online put McMurray #10 as a large pink potato leafed tomato which is exactly the same as a Pink Brandywine. Potato leaf and pink both being recessive, why is it thought to be a cross with a regular leafed red tomato like Neves Azorean?

[MissS]

@karstopography It was a cross made by Dan McMurray. Why he made the cross, I don't know. But he clearly liked the recessive pink PL line. Perhaps he was trying to make something like BW but more heat resistant.

If you are looking for pink, potato leafed varieties, there are a bunch of them and I find them all very good. I haven't found one that I haven't enjoyed.

[karstopography]

@karstopography It was a cross made by Dan McMurray. Why he made the cross, I don't know. But he clearly liked the recessive pink PL line. Perhaps he was trying to make something like BW but more heat resistant.

If you are looking for pink, potato leafed varieties, there are a bunch of them and I find them all very good. I haven't found one that I haven't enjoyed.

I understand that, but I don’t know what indicates it is an actual cross since Neves Azorean is red and regular leafed. What did McMurray 10# gain from Neves Azorean, the two dominant traits, regular leafed and yellow skin? McMurray 10# is said to be a cross, but that seems to be a total leap of faith since both the recessive traits of Brandywine Pink, potato leaf and clear skin, are expressed in the McMurray #10.

[Shule]

@karstopography
The traits of the plant aren't the indicator. It's the breeder's word. I don't know a particular reason to doubt it. He probably bred out the dominant traits from the heterozygous genes during stabilization. It's easier to stabilize if you default to recessive traits since you know they're homozygous if they're expressed. Maybe he liked the taste, productivity, fruit size, vigor, disease-resistance, temperature tolerance, or whatever.

[karstopography]

@karstopography
The traits of the plant aren't the indicator. It's the breeder's word. I don't know a particular reason to doubt it. He probably bred out the dominant traits from the heterozygous genes during stabilization. It's easier to stabilize if you default to recessive traits since you know they're homozygous if they're expressed. Maybe he liked the taste, productivity, fruit size, vigor, disease-resistance, temperature tolerance, or whatever. Or maybe he just wanted a variety he could call his own.

Does that mean that the first daughter of the original cross for this McMurray #10 of Neves and Brandywine was a red, regular leaf and then subsequent grow outs and generations were selected for potato leafed and clear skin traits? Say he grew 25 plants from the first generation, the original cross and 6 of the 25 were potato leafed and two of the six had clear skin. Then he grew out seeds saved from the 2 and kept selecting for potato leafed, clear skin, but the original progenitor seven, eight generations back was a red regular leafed tomato?

In other words, how else is a breeder to know that a cross occurred? I can get it easily if it is say a small blue tomato being crossed with a large orange tomato and the daughter might be an orange tomato with blue shoulders.

Something like Gary‘O Sena is an easy one to understand. Potato leafed Pink parent on one side, Dark tomato on the other side, Gary ‘O is a Potato leafed Dark, traits for both sides.

But crossing a regular leafed red with a Potato leafed pink and the daughter, with the ultimate stabilized cultivar by the very sparse reports I was able to find looking and tasting very much like the one parent, the potato leafed parent, I guess there is a leap of faith that this was a new cultivar and not just Pink Brandywine being called something else.

[ddsack]

I grew Alice Roosevelt back in 2009 according to my records. Did not regrow, so must not have been that impressed, though I did save seeds. Best as I can recall, it was a small to medium red, probably was hoping for an early, but must not have met my expectations. Notes on my envelope say "late and sweet", source seeds were from Marianne Jones via SSE.

McMurray #10 I attempted to grow in 2013/2014, but got no germination either year from the same seed source. Got trade seeds from another person in 2015, which grew out both PL and RL leaf, my notes say pink PL, great taste, late. Nothing about the RL, but I evidently did grew one out since I have some saved seeds from both leaf types. My notes don't say if the RL was pink or red. Now you have me curious! Maybe I will grow out one of each and see if fruit is similar. Of course there is no way of knowing if the trade seeds I got were bee crossed in that person's garden or were dehybridizing from the original cross. And, since I didn't bag blossoms, mine might have been further crossed, so I could not prove much. Still curious though.

Although I had no dealings with him personally , Dan McMurray was widely respected and very helpful to many people of that time, I don't know what his philosophy of crossing or numbers of selections for growouts were, but I don't believe he was one to merely rename something to try to pass it off as something else under a new name. But it's true that there a a lot of pink PL's similar to Brandywine out there under many names, and they all taste great, depending on the season you'd be hard put to tell the difference. Hard to believe they do not have a common ancestor somewhere, and I get your point that re-selecting in future generations might lead you back to the original qualities unless you have a different goal in mind from the start.

[karstopography]

Absolutely, none of these questions are to say anything bad about any breeder, I’m just trying to get a handle on how a breeder knows a cross has happened when the signs aren’t obvious or when the daughter and the ultimate stabilized cross is so very much like one of the original parents.

@ddsack as far as Alice Roosevelt is concerned, lateness isn’t an issue here and I tend to prefer medium to late tomatoes overall, nor does the small to medium size if the internal structure isn’t mostly gel and seeds like some smaller tomatoes can tend to be. I’m actually looking for a variety that produces something around that 5-8 ounce tomato that has or at least approximates the internal structure of a bigger beefsteak. The ideal smaller to medium red would have big old fashioned rich flavor in the vein of Cuostralee or Red Barn. I don’t always want a 14 or 16 ounce tomato, sometimes one that is 6 ounces works even better.

My Missouri Pink Love Apple tomatoes tended to run small, but were almost all meat inside and barely had any seeds or seed cavities. This is what I want and I plan on growing MPLA again, but I also want the same in a red tomato and maybe with the old timey red tomato flavor. Alice Roosevelt from what I read has been around for 100 years or more. Red Barn has that great red tomato old fashioned flavor and the origin stories of that tomato suggest it was an old time tomato for yester year that was resurrected from oblivion by some rather recent famous name tomato authors and breeders. But, Red Barn tomatoes run big. I want something similar in a smaller package.

[Seven Bends]

Red Barn has that great red tomato old fashioned flavor and the origin stories of that tomato suggest it was an old time tomato for yester year that was resurrected from oblivion by some rather recent famous name tomato authors and breeders. But, Red Barn tomatoes run big. I want something similar in a smaller package.

I thought the origin story for Red Barn, per Carolyn Male, is that it was bred by Joe Bratka's father, along with Mule Team, Box Car Willie, Great Divide, and Pasture. Joe Bratka found the seeds in glass jars, couldn't germinate them, and sent them to Carolyn, who was able to get them to grow. Is there another story out there, or is this the one you're referring to?

[karstopography]

Red Barn has that great red tomato old fashioned flavor and the origin stories of that tomato suggest it was an old time tomato for yester year that was resurrected from oblivion by some rather recent famous name tomato authors and breeders. But, Red Barn tomatoes run big. I want something similar in a smaller package.

I thought the origin story for Red Barn, per Carolyn Male, is that it was bred by Joe Bratka's father, along with Mule Team, Box Car Willie, Great Divide, and Pasture. Joe Bratka found the seeds in glass jars, couldn't germinate them, and sent them to Carolyn, who was able to get them to grow. Is there another story out there, or is this the one you're referring to?

That’s essentially the story I read but I believe I understood or inferred from the story that the seeds in the jar were very old (hard to get to germinate due to the age) and might have been grown by someone’s grandfather or something along that line and for a long time, suggestive of perhaps a very old or forgotten about variety.

I can look up the story again, but are there any known links Red Barn shares with any other better known variety? If red barn isn’t an old variety or is a renamed variety, what then would the name be?

[Seven Bends]

Red Barn has that great red tomato old fashioned flavor and the origin stories of that tomato suggest it was an old time tomato for yester year that was resurrected from oblivion by some rather recent famous name tomato authors and breeders. But, Red Barn tomatoes run big. I want something similar in a smaller package.

I thought the origin story for Red Barn, per Carolyn Male, is that it was bred by Joe Bratka's father, along with Mule Team, Box Car Willie, Great Divide, and Pasture. Joe Bratka found the seeds in glass jars, couldn't germinate them, and sent them to Carolyn, who was able to get them to grow. Is there another story out there, or is this the one you're referring to?

That’s essentially the story I read but I believe I understood or inferred from the story that the seeds in the jar were very old (hard to get to germinate due to the age) and might have been grown by someone’s grandfather or something along that line and for a long time, suggestive of perhaps a very old or forgotten about variety.

I can look up the story again, but are there any known links Red Barn shares with any other better known variety? If red barn isn’t an old variety or is a renamed variety, what then would the name be?

Here's the story from Carolyn (2nd post): http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=3034
She says (in many places/posts) that Joe Bratka's father actually bred Red Barn and the other tomatoes listed above. I haven't ever seen speculation about Red Barn being a renamed variety.

[karstopography]

I found another thread or two on the whole Joe Bratka’s father’s series of tomatoes. Red Barn might be the pick of the litter as far as I can determine.

I looked at my 2025 grow out list and it is weighted probably too much towards new to me varieties. Generally, I run with half and half new stuff and ones that I have grown before and liked. In all truth, I could stick with what I already know and be perfectly happy.

[karstopography]

I likely cogitate on what I might grow the next season more than the average bear. Sort of a hobby within a hobby.

[Shule]

@karstopography
The traits of the plant aren't the indicator. It's the breeder's word. I don't know a particular reason to doubt it. He probably bred out the dominant traits from the heterozygous genes during stabilization. It's easier to stabilize if you default to recessive traits since you know they're homozygous if they're expressed. Maybe he liked the taste, productivity, fruit size, vigor, disease-resistance, temperature tolerance, or whatever. Or maybe he just wanted a variety he could call his own.

Does that mean that the first daughter of the original cross for this McMurray #10 of Neves and Brandywine was a red, regular leaf and then subsequent grow outs and generations were selected for potato leafed and clear skin traits? Say he grew 25 plants from the first generation, the original cross and 6 of the 25 were potato leafed and two of the six had clear skin. Then he grew out seeds saved from the 2 and kept selecting for potato leafed, clear skin, but the original progenitor seven, eight generations back was a red regular leafed tomato?

In other words, how else is a breeder to know that a cross occurred? I can get it easily if it is say a small blue tomato being crossed with a large orange tomato and the daughter might be an orange tomato with blue shoulders.

Something like Gary‘O Sena is an easy one to understand. Potato leafed Pink parent on one side, Dark tomato on the other side, Gary ‘O is a Potato leafed Dark, traits for both sides.

But crossing a regular leafed red with a Potato leafed pink and the daughter, with the ultimate stabilized cultivar by the very sparse reports I was able to find looking and tasting very much like the one parent, the potato leafed parent, I guess there is a leap of faith that this was a new cultivar and not just Pink Brandywine being called something else.

Sorry. I missed your reply until now for some unknown reason.

Anyway, the F1 would have had all the dominant traits expressed on the heterozygous genes. So, it definitely would have been regular leaf. Fruit color can be trickier to understand (sometimes you get offspring with fruit colors that neither parent had; you should ask @bower about that and the skin color, probably), but all the F1s would have been the same color as each other (whatever color that be), and had the same traits as each other (except the rare mutants, if there were any). The F2s would all be at least slightly different from each other (genetically), and you'd get both RL and PL plants, probably different fruit colors, different levels of vigor, different levels of production, and such.

So, yes, the recessive traits would have been selected for after initially having had dominant traits expressed. When I breed with crosses, I usually start with a PL plant, let something RL naturally cross it, and then select it back to PL. I like to select for round fruits, too, especially if the F1 wasn't round.

I'm not sure which traits are dominant and recessive with regard to skin color offhand. Generally, for fruit-color, the closer to red it is, the more dominant it is, but this isn't always the case (I guess skin color can affect the fruit color, too). I forgot what pink is dominant over.

[bower]

Absolutely, none of these questions are to say anything bad about any breeder, I’m just trying to get a handle on how a breeder knows a cross has happened when the signs aren’t obvious or when the daughter and the ultimate stabilized cross is so very much like one of the original parents.

@Shule is right, exactly. The F1 cross has all dominant traits. that means RL, red in the first generation.
It doesn't matter which parent has the recessive traits, but obviously if the mother is PL and pink, and the F1 is RL and red, you have confirmed the success of the cross.
However, regardless of the parent direction, this cross would produce roughly 1/4 pink and 1/4 PL offspring in the F2 next gen.
So the cross can be confirmed in the F2, if there's any doubt, if the RL red dominant trait parent was used as mother.

"When the signs aren't obvious" - this would apply if both parents are red, large, RL, etc. You absolutely wouldn't have confirmation of a new tomato cross unless there was some trait very unique to one of them that was transferred and observable in the descendants.

The pink = clear skin gene is recessive to yellow skin so this is an easy find in a cross with a red, that wouldn't be there otherwise. Likewise the PL.

As for breeder motivation in crossing two, perhaps similar tomatoes? to produce an offspring very similar looking to one of them? My guess (since I haven't grown either of these tomatoes) is that he wanted a Brandywine-like tomato that is more (heat resistant, disease resistant, productive, reliable in strange weather, etc etc). In other words, to create an improved Brandywine type for successful harvest, but selecting for the same taste, appearance etc to be as much like Brandywine fruit as can be..