Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#21

Post: # 27931Unread post MsCowpea
Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:23 am

Peebee, thanks so much for the update on the Berkeley Method! I agree completely about all the turning. In Florida it is over 90 in the daytime and 80 at night. Still, I want to try to get this to break down in 2 months. DH and I never turn any of the other piles, now I have 2 that I would like to turn. It looks so small maybe it won’t be too hard. Unfortunately the pieces of cover crop are quite big, 4 inches or so, and the stems are thick, the Berkeley Method says the pieces have to be small to compost quickly. But we shall see. If you catch the cover crop earlier you can mow with mower, let it grow too long and you have to chop it up by hand which is what DH did on this batch. Awful job in this heat.

Getting compost material is a pain for many. We mow approx. acre here and then our neighbor’s yard as well just for the grass! We have a sit down mower but don’t use It as it doesn’t catch the grass. Then we have the horse manure and bedding and some yard waste like banana trees.

That is why Dave’s method of substituting store bought manure compost would help those who can’t make compost or enough compost. And adding potting mix to the hole would help too for people with lousy soil. I have always added potting mix to all my holes but just a small shovel full along with the compost. I did it to help plants get off to good start. Plus I used additional organic fertilizer as well.

Charles Wilber mentions using compost tea made with compost in burlap bag but it is just one line buried in a chapter so easy to miss. Dave really stresses using the tea frequently and makes it exactly as Wilber outlines. It is very easy to make as it is not aerated with a pump. Just put the burlap bag in large container and stir by hand a few days. He does use a pump to distribute it. I have made tea without the bag and then I just throw the mucky leftovers on the garden but this year I think I will scrounge up some burlap bags.

I want to try and grow more cucumbers too but we have pickleworm. Barb defeated them with fabric tulle so I am going to try that. Marsha recommended a cucumber called Taurus F1 so I got seeds along with few others. Maybe you could try milk spray for your powdery mildew. I am going to try it on my cucumbers as they quickly get diseased but it may have been the variety. The F1 hybrid may help me in this regard.
(There are research studies on using milk as a fungicide.)

Good luck with your garden! There is always so much to figure out. I wasn’t jumping up and down with happiness with all the results of my garden last year either. But there is always next time.
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#22

Post: # 27933Unread post Barb_FL
Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:49 am

Here is the description of the 18 stem method of pruning. Basically, the # of shoots you allow is the same # of vertical wires on the cages you are using. It can easily be 12. He trains the shoots to go outside the cage and the middle of the cage is hollow.



On his You-tube video about 8 minutes in, there are pictures of all his ripe tomatoes on plants including a brandywine.



He uses Self watering containers too.

One thing I picked up re: the liquid fertilizer is if the directions say x amount per gallon, you give the entire gallon to the plant. I was always unclear on this especially with the expensive fertz.

If I see anything of interest to this group, I will update this

One thing that REALLY surprised me is he buys his plants. I think he rarely starts from seeds.

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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#23

Post: # 27942Unread post MsCowpea
Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:23 am

Barb, I did study that when I first ran across his site and it does help to supplement Wilber’s information. Dave has a great photograph taken from above—all the vines are trained to the outside. You need a vine attached to each vertical wire of the cage (18). (Fewer with a smaller cage.) I will try to figure it out once again on a few special ones, but I don’t have the time to do it on a lot of plants so will have to stick to no pruning on most.

But as Wilber says, that is the whole point of such a production driven system. You don’t need so many plants if you get excellent production.
(This is not applicable to those who want to try as many heirlooms and created OP tomato varieties as possible.)

Dave does stick to just a few highly productive hybrid varieties and Brandywine as well.

I can understand not having to grow your own plants around certain areas in California- they have incredible selection and are very
attuned to heirlooms. I was at Love Apple Farm (Cynthia Sandberg) sale , further north by Santa Cruz . I was absolutely bug-eyed and envious of all the varieties people could buy.
And there are other growers and nurseries as well. I went out of my way to go to Santa Monica Farmers Market to get a REAL, authentic Goose Creek plant but they were sold out. Would have carried it on the plane and then set up an AC to grow it off season. :lol: Brought my ‘Seeds To Skillet’ book to have it signed too. I also used to read about a huge tomato plant sale at LA Arboretum (think that was the place). And they had workshops too. I always wanted to check it out for fun. PeeBee , did you ever go there?
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#24

Post: # 27945Unread post Ginger2778
Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:57 am

MsCowpea wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:23 am Peebee, thanks so much for the update on the Berkeley Method! I agree completely about all the turning. In Florida it is over 90 in the daytime and 80 at night. Still, I want to try to get this to break down in 2 months. DH and I never turn any of the other piles, now I have 2 that I would like to turn. It looks so small maybe it won’t be too hard. Unfortunately the pieces of cover crop are quite big, 4 inches or so, and the stems are thick, the Berkeley Method says the pieces have to be small to compost quickly. But we shall see. If you catch the cover crop earlier you can mow with mower, let it grow too long and you have to chop it up by hand which is what DH did on this batch. Awful job in this heat.

Getting compost material is a pain for many. We mow approx. acre here and then our neighbor’s yard as well just for the grass! We have a sit down mower but don’t use It as it doesn’t catch the grass. Then we have the horse manure and bedding and some yard waste like banana trees.

That is why Dave’s method of substituting store bought manure compost would help those who can’t make compost or enough compost. And adding potting mix to the hole would help too for people with lousy soil. I have always added potting mix to all my holes but just a small shovel full along with the compost. I did it to help plants get off to good start. Plus I used additional organic fertilizer as well.

Charles Wilber mentions using compost tea made with compost in burlap bag but it is just one line buried in a chapter so easy to miss. Dave really stresses using the tea frequently. It is very easy to make as it is not aerated with a pump. Just put the burlap bag in large container and stir by hand a few days. He does use a pump to distribute it. I have made tea without the bag and then I just throw the mucky leftovers on the garden but this year I think I will scrounge up some burlap bags.

I want to try and grow more cucumbers too but we have pickleworm. Barb defeated them with fabric tulle so I am going to try that. Marsha recommended a cucumber called Taurus F1 so I got seeds along with few others. Maybe you could try milk spray for your powdery mildew. I am going to try it on my cucumbers as they quickly get diseased but it may have been the variety. The F1 hybrid may help me in this regard.
(There are research studies on using milk as a fungicide.)

Good luck with your garden! There is always so much to figure out. I wasn’t jumping up and down with happiness with all the results of my garden last year either. But there is always next time.
I don't think you are going to have any issues at all with powdery mildew with Taurus F1 , but do wrap with the tulle to keep those nocturnal pickle worm moths out. I do this every evening and uncover every am, allows growth so the cucumbers don't curl, and allows airflow.
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#25

Post: # 27946Unread post MsCowpea
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:08 pm

I just love that colored tulle in your garden. Looks ‘decorative’.

I saw that Taurus had some resistance to powdery mildew which is great. But I get something else, not sure what. Sets in really quickly too.
Maybe downy mildew? Heard of that one but not sure what it is. Will look for pic of my cucumbers.
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#26

Post: # 27948Unread post peebee
Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:50 pm

Yes Elaine I have gone to the numerous plant sales here in the past. They were all over, at Fullerton State, the Arboretum, and at the Huntington. Wonderful selections. And of course nurseries like H & H in Lakewood. I had planned to go to as many sales as I could this spring but you know what stopped all that.

About the compost just wanted to clarify that the cover crop was not added to the compost but rather already turned into the soil. For me it was the timing. I would not have had all the compost materials ready when the cover crop was done. If I had waited then the crops would've gotten way too overgrown and it's a pain enough to cut it all by hand which I do. I find that for me the more grass the better as it heats up the entire pile, plus after I moisten it down every day I sometimes cover it with a tarp. Our weather is very dry.

Marshall I don't know if the cukes had powdery or downy mildew now that I think about it. All I know is that the milk remedy didn't work and it spread very quickly. I don't know what name the Taurus variety goes by in Japan but I do know there are several with increased mildew resistance. I had planned to buy different types when I went on my annual trip there this spring but again we all know what stopped that...
Looking forward to watching all the Dave videos and reading his blog and all the postings here about composting and EBs :)
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#27

Post: # 27958Unread post MsCowpea
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:24 pm

Peebee, I had to make some decisions about how to handle cover crop. Wilber grows rye etc. in the winter and tills it in. He has access to all that free kudzu as well. Like you , trying to get away from tilling. Or just do minimal surface tilling. We used to till the big beds but it was HARD work handling that tiller.

I planted a summer cover crop when the tomatoes were pulled ( April/May?) but this time when the crop was ready we just mowed or cut it off and chopped it up to use in C.W. compost pile as a fresh legume to replace kudzu. I left the roots which will hopefully add a bit of nitrogen and deter nematodes.
It is not as good as leaving the whole cover crop in the bed but I have no where else to grow the legume that goes in compost. I don’t like chopping it by hand either. It is a juggle figuring out when to cut cover crop to have enough time to make compost. :roll:

Now we are covering the beds with grass and horse manure and bedding . Grass, is amazing. Like you, can’t believe how much it heats up.
Probably could build a whole system around just using grass.
If we don’t cover the beds, weeds will grow as we don’t plant until Oct. I also got some peat moss and soil conditioner (aged pine bark) —May use some of that in the beds as well but I have never done that before. Don’t know if it is a good idea or bad—should be OK.
Eventually will dig the big holes and fill with the Compost enhanced soil mix. :D

(I think it was the event in Fullerton I was thinking of, if they have a few workshops too. Hopefully next year all back to normal.
Loved The Huntington, beautiful place. )
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#28

Post: # 27972Unread post MsCowpea
Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:09 pm

24 hours later (3 feet by 3 feet)
Cooking away.
Don’t want it hotter than this or I will have to turn it.
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#29

Post: # 27993Unread post peebee
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:01 am

Compost is cooking all right! I sure enjoy composting. Can't wait to start again. In the meantime the worm bins will have to do.
Just listened to Tomato Dave's basic 1 hour plus video. I have questions of course, like does he put in a fresh bag of potting mix into each hole each season? Or does he just refresh with new steer manure? I'll have to research further as I'm sure these have already been answered. Because it can get kinda expensive although if you can get that many tomatoes then it's worth it. Also it seems like in most of his pics all the tomatoes seen to be ripening at once, all the leaves are dry and brown and there doesn't seem to be a lot of newer green growth on top.

Of course now I'll have to try it and see for myself. I'm thinking of devoting a bed to this trial: 2 tomatoes with store bought potting mix and 2 with used potting mix that has been in my combo compost/worm bin for a year. The later would be from EBs so Promix nice and fluffy taking in nutrients from the worms and compost. Everything else would be according to his method. Oh dear, I wonder if we still have those cages I stopped using years ago. I'll have to check.

I've read Wilber's book but it just isn't doable for me. Wish we had kudzu here. I wonder if there are gardeners out there who have followed his teachings exactly, anybody know?

Good luck with your composting[mention]MsCowpea[/mention] I'll be checking in here often :)
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#30

Post: # 27999Unread post Barb_FL
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:04 am

Peebee - Regarding Dave, he says he reuses his potting mix. It was in a comment such as "like you, I reuse my mix'. On his plants with all the ripe tomatoes at once, the plants look like that because he has removed the leaves f to show how many tomatoes are hidden. One of his pictures had the before leaf removal vs after. He before plants looked good.

I thought all his red tomatoes looked exactly the same including brandywine and the tomatoes are really low in the plant. Maybe spreading out the 'shoots' assist with this.

His recommended products are widely available in big box stores and ones that I never use; I tend to buy the expensive specialty stuff rather than indirectly support Monsanto.

One thing I totally disagreed with his take on dry fertilizer; When I first transplanted from the 6 cell to individual 4" pots, I use to add dry fertilizer and that was it until they were finally transplanted. The brands used was Tomato Maker and one year I did the TTF dry fertilizer which is excellent.

I grew a couple of determinate tomatoes the '19-20 season and even their production was spread out a lot. I didn't have the produce all and die like I've read about determinate tomatoes. The two that I am referring to are BHN589 and Defiant. Also Mountain Fresh Plus produced all season and stayed <4'; the other 2 were taller.

I'm going to give it a go also especially with his pruning even down to getting the better boy seeds; I have too much wind for single/double stem and my plants already get too tall. I have cages and extensions for all of them.

OTOH - AKMARK grows 2 plants per 4 gallon bag and does continual feeding of Chem-gro (like Masterblend but different vendor) and his production is out of sight too. BTW - Where is AKMARK?

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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#31

Post: # 28015Unread post MsCowpea
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:24 pm

Peebee and Barb,

Since you both read Wilber’s book I think you will recognize some similarities
with Dave’ s method. Wilber, still seems to me to be the ‘father’ of the high production system using compost and very specific growing techniques. (Re: Planting in deep hole amended with compost, straw mulching peeled off bale, pruning to 18 stems, compost tea, etc.). He worked years coming up with the method so I like to acknowledge some of his original ideas.

But it is great to see some of the principles modified so that they are
doable to the average gardener.

Dave mentioned that he studied, researched and trialed various ideas
and has certainly come up with a successful combination of easily purchased inputs to get great production.

Plus Dave has expanded his own system to include many great ideas like fertilizing with synthetic or organic fertilizing. (Your choice)
And utilizing the whole system in a self watering container with phenomenal results!

Dave also has great information on pollination (toothbrush) , diseases, mites, varieties, sun requirements. Covers basically everything you need to know to grow huge crop of tomatoes. And all inputs readily available at big box stores.

Still wish he had referenced Wilber’s book —Wilber considered his technique his legacy and hoped it would be carried on by other gardeners.
Last edited by MsCowpea on Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#32

Post: # 28018Unread post MsCowpea
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:42 pm

Forgot I found this on reusing mix:

Dave’s planting hole : 18” to 24” deep and 18” to 24” width ( get rid of soil).
Fills with potting mix and then adds 1/3 to 1/2 bag of steer manure compost.
Dave says somewhere that he doesn’t replace all of the mix each time he plants. He reuses it.
He just digs out plant, and adds more mix made up of the same new potting mix and the steer manure that he used to originally fill the hole.
He says only if you feel your soil is diseased would you replace completely.

(Wilber’s planting
hole: The hole is 2’ x 2’ x 12 inches deep.) 3 parts existing soil to 1 part
homemade compost. (But Wilber has good soil and uses a cover crop as well.) Uses alfalfa meal. And compost tea but doesn’t say how often or how much.

The mulching. pruning, and training the tomato plant is pretty much identical in both methods. Watering setup is different but important in both.

Barb, what I found amazing is the success of Dave’s self watering containers with all that steer manure/compost added when that is always
considered a big no-no in SWC.

I always try out every method I find on growing tomatoes . I have tried Japanese Tomato ring and Growing Tomatoes in Garbage. :lol:
Looking forward to experimenting with Dave’s complete system. I did try
the bagged purchased manure compost tea on some inground peppers. I find it hard to add Black Cow Manure/compost to my containers as I have had horrible results with that stuff. Couldn’t find steer manure but there is another brand of cow manure.
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#33

Post: # 28019Unread post MsCowpea
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:56 pm

Another HOMEMADE compost pile (modified Wilber). Turned this pile that had shrunk down quite a bit. Last night, Working the night shift , by myself, after dark with no light. I was resting in a chair right by the pile
when a fox snuck up on me (about 20 feet away) and started barking that scary bark they have. Nearly jumped out of my skin. :o :o :o
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#34

Post: # 28022Unread post Barb_FL
Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:37 pm

You need a head lamp when working outside at night with no lights. This one is really good and rechargeable; very bright. It's evehttps://www.amazon.com/Foxelli-USB-Rechargeable ... 30&sr=8-9n cheaper now than when I bought mine:


I would have screamed; I saw a rat one night when I was going to look for tomato hornworms and screamed.

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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#35

Post: # 28024Unread post MsCowpea
Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:44 pm

Good idea. I tried to record his barking on my phone so DH could hear it but I fumbled around too much and he ran off. Wasn’t any light to get his picture. The bark is similar to a dog yet very different . I recognize it instantly. He was’t expecting a human sitting in a chair in the dark.
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#36

Post: # 28026Unread post Barb_FL
Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:06 pm

MsCowpea wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:42 pm ....
Barb, what I found amazing is the success of Dave’s self watering containers with all that steer manure/compost added when that is always
considered a big no-no in SWC.

I always try out every method I find on growing tomatoes . I have tried Japanese Tomato ring and Growing Tomatoes in Garbage. :lol:
Looking forward to experimenting with Dave’s complete system. I did try
the bagged purchased manure compost tea on some inground peppers. I find it hard to add Black Cow Manure/compost to my containers as I have had horrible results with that stuff. Couldn’t find steer manure but there is another brand of cow manure.
And if the steer manure in his SWC wasn't enough he was pouring the steer manure tea from the top.

He also said that his SWC have a 3 gallon reservoir - that is the same as an EB.

I won't even put Neptune's Harvest fish/kelp mix or their tomato Fertz down the EB tube.

----
I've actually done a lot of what Dave does except I've used much better products and teas such as Primordial Solutions Sea Green and their other products. I've tried others including Manmouth, Fish *Bleep* and some samples I would get from the hydro store. I also was going to the hydro store and getting their brewed free tea (other than I spend $100 whenever I went there so not such a great bargain - haha). If I have to buy the liquids, I don't want to brew them.

What I haven't done is grow Better Boy, barely prune, and mainly grow during the low light winter. I can remedy the Better Boy and pruning.
I never got close to the production he gets with Big Beef. Hopefully it is the pruning.

I haven't been to the hydro store since early Covid - March.

BTW - Black cow Manure is the worst. When you first open the bag, it is impressive - dark. I left it overnight in a wheel barrow and this next day (no rain), it was mostly sand. Then I tossed the bag into a part of my yard that I don't use. Cleaned up a few years later with the bag disintegrating, and what was left was pretty light colored sand.

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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#37

Post: # 28030Unread post MsCowpea
Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:52 pm

I need to fly to Calif. and bring back a bag of steer manure in my suitcase in the interest of science. In loo of that we will have to rely on peebee
to follow Dave’s instructions as she is in S. Calif. and can get steer manure. Then we can all compare. :) I have bought Timberlake Cow Manure before from Home Depot and thought it looked crummy but it still must have something going for it when you make up the tea. Plus supposed to fertilize weekly as well.
I already have Kellogg’s Organic liquid fertilizer , bought it months ago to use as supplement in EB. Home Depot has it on line. There are lots of other fertilizers too.

I think I will use 2 Better Boys after all as that is Wilber’s choice . At least on this experiment.
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#38

Post: # 28031Unread post Barb_FL
Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:12 pm

There are lots of good tea options available to us. I have everything to brew; I just don't like to do it. My hydro store right now has BOGO on their stump tea; of course their brewer is heavy duty and mine is a 5 gallon pail with a pump and aerating stones.

For easy teas, check out Primordial solutions - particularly Sea Green (don't buy from Amazon). I think the vendor ships for free and $13.95 no shipping will make 55 gallons. Just add water, etc.

You can make your own (brew) with your worm castings too. Even the dry fertz from TTF can be made into a tea.

Dave let his sit for days and didn't brew so that was make it go anaerobic (at least in our climate).

Dave did make it seem so easy. I put in a lot more effort and $ for not nearly the reward.

----
BTW - Are you going to buy Better Boy plants? or grow your own?

On Amazon, I saw in my saved cart that Bio Thrive Bloom was reduced to $11.69 so I was going to buy it and they wouldn't ship to me.

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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#39

Post: # 28034Unread post PlainJane
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:27 pm

Barb_FL wrote: Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:04 am OTOH - AKMARK grows 2 plants per 4 gallon bag and does continual feeding of Chem-gro (like Masterblend but different vendor) and his production is out of sight too. BTW - Where is AKMARK?
Wondering the same ...
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Re: Charles Wilber Compost (How to Grow World Record Tomatoes)

#40

Post: # 28035Unread post MsCowpea
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:38 pm

Barb, This time I am going to stick to Wilber’s instruction on making compost tea. Well aged compost goes in burlap bag in 55 gal. container. Agitate for 3 or 4 days. Dave makes his tea the same way though he has a neat way to distribute it. I have gone the aerated compost route with multiple ingredients but never really got into it big time. I will keep it simple this time. For Dave’s Better Boy I will just use purchased, bagged manure to make the tea. Wilber’s Better Boy will get the labor-intensive homemade compost tea.


I will grow my own Better Boys and luckily , even though I don’t care much for BB, we have many friends who love a round , red tomato. I have to twist there arms to take a dark one.

Hydroponic, greenhouse growing with Chem-gro is a whole different kettle of fish. Can’t imagine two systems further apart but both
are incredibly productive.
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