Time Necessary To Set Fruit

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karstopography
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Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#1

Post: # 45300Unread post karstopography
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:30 am

Anyone have a summary or handle on this? Seems like open pollinated varieties take longer to set fruit, as measured from when bloom opens to the little tomato showing up, than hybrids, but I wonder what all goes into the timing, temperature ought to be a factor.

I don’t know if it is even important to understand, but maybe it is. Hillbilly got me thinking about this since mine seem to take an eternity to actually set fruit. Pineapple right next to it, even though also open pollinated, is much quicker. Of course, big beef on the other side is quick too. Maybe slow set is a potato leaf tomato thing?

Now that I think about it, Cherokee purple is also very slow to set.
Zone 9b, located in the Columbia bottomlands, annual rainfall 46”

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jmsieglaff
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#2

Post: # 45310Unread post jmsieglaff
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:32 pm

I do not know the answer for your question. I have had Brandywine and Green Giant sit and hold pollinated blossoms for weeks sometime with little to no fruit development, then all of a sudden, BOOM, they take off. I have assumed it had something to do with growing conditions, but I'm not sure. The fact it is not consistently happening from year to year strengths my guess of that.

I suspect many hybrid varieties are bred with many specific goals, I'm sure maturing fruit as quickly as possible while maintaining flavor goals are one of them. All this is very scientific and closely watched, whereas the heirlooms are things people have grown in the backyard and for the most part don't pay super close attention to and the number one goal has been flavor, so things like holding pollinated blossoms and delayed fruit growth isn't of a concern so those traits continue. Could very well be fruit growth and some good flavor genetics are in close proximity on some chromosomes. I'm curious if any of the more tomato genetic knowledge rich members will be able to share anything insightful.

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bower
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#3

Post: # 45312Unread post bower
Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:29 pm

I have some data on this from early breeding days.
The time from flower opening to set, and from set to ripening, are reportedly under separate genetic control, but environment also plays a role - maybe a big role.
Just from memory, I think the earliest time I have noted from bloom opening to a pea sized set was 9 days. 12-15 days is typical in my early spring conditions. In very cold conditions, I've seen a flower sit for 24 days before setting!
So it was interesting to compare different varieties but I gave up on keeping track of it because the weather plays such a big role, year to year.
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pepperhead212
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#4

Post: # 45389Unread post pepperhead212
Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:30 pm

I have a cherry tomato this year that is OP, but is supposed to have ripe fruit in 42 days, giving it the name 42 day tomato. I'll find out if it is true...

Cherries set fruit much faster, in my experience, once the flowers appear - the reason I grow so many! When blossoms drop, due to heat, it doesn't take long for them to get ripe fruits, while larger ones are notoriously slow, at least in my experience.
Woodbury, NJ zone 7a/7b

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bower
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#5

Post: # 45396Unread post bower
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:48 pm

Yeah, the time from a pea sized set to a blushing fruit depends on fruit size to a large extent. Cherries here take 30 days minimum, cw larger fruits 45 days and up. You will still find some variation between varieties that have the same size fruit, so there are other genetic factors involved besides the size alone. And environment, of course!
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#6

Post: # 45405Unread post pepperhead212
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:09 pm

I've had some cherries get a ripe fruit much sooner than 30 days from when I'd see the flowers appear, after the blossom drop. I never kept records, but after the heat waves, usually in late July, I'd get some ripe cherries in mid August, while it would usually be early September, with larger varieties.
Woodbury, NJ zone 7a/7b

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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#7

Post: # 45406Unread post Rockoe10
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:25 pm

Im growing "42 Days" for the first time this year, as well. So far it's the slowest to germinate and grow. It was so slow to germinate infact, that i deemed it dead. Only giving it a few more days "just in case", which it then popped up.

I have a total of 30 different varieties that beat it in germination. That's not to say it won't still be the fastest to produce ripe fruit, but it's not too a good start.
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pepperhead212
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#8

Post: # 45415Unread post pepperhead212
Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:49 pm

[mention]Rockoe10[/mention] My 42 day seeds germinated in between the rest of my varieties - not one of the slowest or fastest - and same with the growth rate. But then, sunsugar and other cherries have often been slow for me, at first, until planted outside, then, LOOK OUT! I always figured it was maybe because many have much smaller seeds.
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#9

Post: # 45421Unread post mama_lor
Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:01 am

I have noticed that for varieties that have pollination problems (tendency to catface, which are many heirlooms), the time until fruit forms tends to be longer on average. But as Bower said, other factors like the weather, time in the season, nutrition, are also important (I guess the famous vegetative/generative balance).

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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#10

Post: # 45426Unread post bower
Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:44 am

It would be really fun to look at some 'random' data on this. All you have to do is tag a flower of your chosen variety on the day it opens, write down the date, and then take note of the day the fruit blushes. I found it much easier to do this early in the season because of course you are not busily picking tomatoes and every flower is full of potential! ;) So any time data would be cool. Any takers?
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karstopography
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#11

Post: # 45427Unread post karstopography
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:06 am

B8CF92A8-FC0E-48D2-A1CA-1E38E0274532.jpeg
FD834EDB-A414-4FD2-91E6-DC54418789C4.jpeg
A8A32A28-AF67-4A24-8754-104E31A53ECA.jpeg
I like to look at the individual blooms. Nice thought to track them. Not sure I will, I find I’m bad about writing stuff down.

The heirloom open pollinated types seem to have quite a different bloom cluster than the hybrids. Hybrids often have the marching, alternating bloom structure, the first four, five or six blooms about identical in an orderly pattern with the two or three closest to the stem setting fruit first and the rest following. Heirloom blooms don’t really follow that alternative pattern, seem more haphazard in the arrangement of the individual blooms. There usually are strong looking blossoms and weaker ones. Hillbilly has very large complex looking blossoms. Pineapple blossoms are similar, but a little less robust.
13B421BF-D6D7-47BB-8392-C69D559D1236.jpeg
C1FDEC90-AA76-4171-A28D-87FF17F087BA.jpeg
Both produce big bi-color fruit.
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Rockoe10
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#12

Post: # 45428Unread post Rockoe10
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:07 am

I'm up for it!

I'll be bagging all my flowers this year for seed production. It will make for easy dating too.

Curious if this will have any affect on time to blushing. All my reading of the literature into bagging have said it doesn't.
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#13

Post: # 45429Unread post Gardadore
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:38 am

Will try as long as I remember! Have always thought of doing that but as you pointed out one gets really busy with picking, etc. Will do better with notating the first flowers! Must remember to have a pad and pen available!

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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#14

Post: # 45433Unread post pepperhead212
Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:45 am

pepperhead212 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:49 pm @Rockoe10 My 42 day seeds germinated in between the rest of my varieties - not one of the slowest or fastest - and same with the growth rate...
After doing my usual morning check of my seedlings, I'll have to change that - one of my 42 Day seedlings is one of the two largest in the tray, just below touching the lights, so I had to drop the tray an inch. The other two are about an inch shorter - pretty much average, as I noted before.

[mention]Bower[/mention] I'll try to do that, especially early on. I have a notebook out in the shed for various things, and I'll add that to it.


Update: I can't believe that this slipped my mind during this discussion. Something that I do early on, with the first blossoms that appear, first on the cherries, then on some of the larger ones - the method known as "buzzing the blossoms". I remembered it today, when I saw my vegi-bee, out by the back door. I originally did it with a cheap electric toothbrush, and did an experiment, to see if it was worth the trouble, or just a myth - I had two Sunsugars growing next to each other in an EB, and one I buzzed and one I didn't. They flowered about the same time, but the one that I buzzed got some ripe tomatoes a few days early, but mainly, a larger number of fruit set. It seems that with the earlier blossoms there are more that don't seem to set, at least with the early varieties. After a while, I have so many plants with so many blossoms that I don't bother with this, plus, I don't see many wasted blossoms, maybe because the bees are out there by then - tomatoes are self-pollinating, but pollinators still help them.

I also do this with early eggplant blossoms, and it helps with those, as well.
Woodbury, NJ zone 7a/7b

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bower
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#15

Post: # 45438Unread post bower
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:04 pm

[mention]karstopography[/mention] those are a very nice set of pics! of the different cluster structures.
Carmello has the "double cluster" feature which for sure is one to select for, especially in limited space.
The alternative, tight single cluster with smaller number of fruit, as seen in Big Beef, is also a great trait for larger fruited types, as they will tend to be more uniform in size and ripe time.
I do think ripe time can be affected by cluster size as well.
Individual tomatoes seem to have a lot of personal control of which fruit they want to grow and when. I see it a lot because of our wierd climate stresses on tomatoes here. Those rambling heirloom style clusters are in that autonomous variation style. Love em! I like all fruit all sizes. ;)

When I don't have time or inclination to take down notes, I use my pics as a record. They are all dated, so I can go back for that.
So if anyone is taking pics just tie a colored string or such to the bloom you're tracking, take a pic - and post it here if you like. :) Then when you see that fruit start to blush, another pic and voila.. tis done.
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yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm

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bower
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Re: Time Necessary To Set Fruit

#16

Post: # 45439Unread post bower
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:14 pm

[mention]pepperhead212[/mention] that is good to know about the vegibee experiment! I just shake mine, but have seen that there's only pollen release at certain hours of the day (11 to 3 pm is optimal here for collecting pollen for crosses). They seem to be waiting for that perfect combination of temperature, relative humidity etc. to release the pollen. But a real buzzing helps I guess.
If I could get flowers to set fruit in a couple of days after opening, it would be amazing.
AgCan Zone 5a/USDA zone 4
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm

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