Seed saving unripe tomato

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Doffer
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Seed saving unripe tomato

#1

Post: # 47369Unread post Doffer
Mon May 24, 2021 12:24 pm

When a tomato is ripe we can harvest seeds an sow them to get new plants.
How ripe does a tomato have to be to get seeds for new plants, can we save seeds from unripe green tomatoes?

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Barmaley
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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#2

Post: # 47371Unread post Barmaley
Mon May 24, 2021 12:32 pm

I believe that you don't have to wait for the fruit to be fully ripe but it has to start showing red color and not completely green (for red varieties).

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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#3

Post: # 47372Unread post jmsieglaff
Mon May 24, 2021 12:51 pm

In general the fruit needs to have started the ripening process to offer viable seed, so no a completely unripe fruit does not have viable seed. The more ripe the fruit the higher percentage of viable seed....when in the process some seeds become viable I do not know. But if you pick a tomato at blush, you can let it ripen more inside, so why not wait the few days for further ripening and higher quality seed?

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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#4

Post: # 47377Unread post Ginger2778
Mon May 24, 2021 4:06 pm

I have saved from partially ripened tomatoes, and from those with almost, and /or full color, and in general I find that the fuller colored ones do better. And folks can tell you my seeds usually have upwards of 100% germination.
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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#5

Post: # 47387Unread post bower
Mon May 24, 2021 7:08 pm

The usual practice, if late in the season and you cannot get a full ripe fruit for seeds, is to bag your nearly mature green fruit and wait until it is fully colored. I've had green fruit that took over a month to finally turn color in the bag. You will then get some viable seeds, but the caution is, they may not have the same longevity of seeds from a fruit that matured to at least the "green ripe" stage on the plant. So it's best to grow those out within a year or two.
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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#6

Post: # 47389Unread post Shule
Mon May 24, 2021 7:24 pm

As long as the fruits are showing any ripening color at all, the seeds should be fine. I've harvested seeds from completely green ones that probably would have changed color soon, too, and a lot of those were fine, too. The less ripe they are, though, the more chance you'll have of getting seeds that aren't mature; you can tell which ones aren't mature, though, since they squish and fall apart if you rub them very much. Mature seeds won't be bothered even with a large amount of rubbing. The seeds don't all mature at the same time; so, you can get some good seeds from a fruit where others aren't ready yet.

If you put the seeds in a blender on the lowest setting for a second or two and they all get destroyed, then they probably weren't mature.

Those are my observations/opinions, anyway.

If you've already harvested them, and you don't want to risk them being immature, you can let them ripen further indoors; it works.

If you let them ripen too long (on or off the vine), the seeds can start to rot (or get those black flecks on them), though.
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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#7

Post: # 47392Unread post slugworth
Mon May 24, 2021 7:38 pm

I usually try to salvage the plant vs. green tomato approach.
I am starting seeds now that will never get ripe in time.
I will have to continue growing indoors to get seeds for next year.
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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#8

Post: # 47409Unread post mama_lor
Tue May 25, 2021 2:26 am

I think I read somewhere that if the seeds start having some gel, you can get viable seeds (let the tomato get red first of course). So that would be quite a bit before showing color. If you mean harvesting directly from the green fruit, then yeah, it will need to probably start showing some color at least.

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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#9

Post: # 47439Unread post Doffer
Tue May 25, 2021 4:08 pm

The purpose of my question is that I would like to grow 4 generations of plants in one year. However, this will not work if you have to wait for the fruit to start to color. So I will have to harvest seeds from unripe green fruits.

Only how do you know whether the unripe green fruit already contains a full seed. I hope someone already has experience with this?

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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#10

Post: # 47448Unread post Shule
Tue May 25, 2021 7:40 pm

Doffer wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:08 pm

Only how do you know whether the unripe green fruit already contains a full seed. I hope someone already has experience with this?
You don't really know, but here are some tips:

Use your intuition.

Make sure the fruit is as big as it's going to get, and if possible let it ripen post-harvest (pick some vine with it to further nourish the tomato). Then you have a good chance of getting viable seeds. If you can't let it ripen indoors (it sounds like you don't want to do that), don't worry. It can still work.

It's more likely to have viable seeds if the unripe fruit is shiny, as opposed to dull, for many varieties. If it's dull, it might still be growing. If it shrivels up post-harvest, it's probably too young. Some varieties don't get shiny, though.

What varieties are you wanting to do this with?

I wouldn't count on it working terribly well with oxhearts, parthenocarpic varieties, or tomatoes with very few seeds.

I've grown seeds from green tomatoes. It's not what I usually do, but I've done it with a few to several varieties—sometimes out of necessity (because of fruit that didn't have time to ripen outside), and sometimes for other reasons.

I've thought about doing what you're doing before (growing multiple generations in one season).

Here are some obstacles you might encounter:
* Too hot for tomatoes to sprout; they stop sprouting when it gets 90+ in my area, and it's 90+ a lot.
* Young succession plants might get stunted by heat/drought, especially if they're not big enough, or if there's not enough organic matter in the soil
* Indoors, you may find diseases and pests a more frequent problem for tomatoes you're starting in the summer. Use temperature regulation (don't let the plants get too hot); have ventilation, watch out for indoor humidity, etc.
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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#11

Post: # 47751Unread post Doffer
Sun May 30, 2021 1:55 pm

Tomatoes ripen because of the Ethylene gas. Ethylene gas comes from a ripe banana peel. Could you speed up the ripening process by wrapping the truss of tomatoes on the bush with a plastic bag and banana peel inside?

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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#12

Post: # 47755Unread post MrBig46
Sun May 30, 2021 4:34 pm

For tomatoes, botanical ripeness is indicated, ie the moment when the tomato is already full size, the dull dark green color of the fruit turns lighter, the tomato is shiny and a hint of redness appears. Ripe seeds seeds float in such a gel. Of course, it's good to let the tomatoes ripen somewhere on the windowsill, for example, but sometimes it doesn't work, because the tomato is somehow damaged by disease or cracked and there is a risk of mold. In order for tomatoes to germinate, they do not need to be ripe for consumption.
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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#13

Post: # 47872Unread post bower
Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:15 am

The "green ripe" condition is easy to learn to recognize - just watch a fruit as it approaches the 'breaker' stage of natural ripeness on the bush. As MrBig46 said, they are shiny and not opaque as you see in immature fruits. These are terms used in the industry where fruit are typically harvested before full ripeness and gassed with ethylene at point of sale.
With regards the ethylene tricks, I would not experiment with a plastic bag but you could try a paper bag instead. Condensation inside the plastic will be a sad mess and the heat may just kill your branch as well. Paper will contain the ethylene just as well, this is why we do use paper bags to ripen fruit off the vine, or a cardboard box, or cover with paper etc. never plastic. The riper fruit are giving off ethylene and this helps the little ones along as well - but only if they are green ripe. So I think it could hasten ripening on fruit close to maturity. But for immature fruit, I would think the sunshine and air circulation are more important to mature. Ethylene is not going to hasten the maturing of immature fruit on the vine. The days to ripen a set fruit is determined by genetics as well as environment - for me the fastest fruit would be a cherry size and about 30 days from setting. But it's true that ripening can be slower if temperatures are cool.
I have noticed that outdoor plants in the autumn were not ripening until I started using row cover at night. So there are two possible factors (1) tweak your night temperature, 60F would be optimum afaik neither too hot nor cold (2) was ethylene from the green ripe fruit blowing away on the wind? Perhaps the row cover allowed some ethylene to build up during the night and this promoted ripening.

With regards the bagging, I would be careful with your ethylene source as well, that it should not contact the fruit you want to ripen. You will get most ethylene from something actually rotting, like a banana peel, but you still get quite a lot from eg a sound ripe fruit, and do not risk spoiling your fruit before it ripens. You may say you don't care because it's not for eating but IME seeds from underripe fruit that developed rot or mold were not so good.

If it is not your initial cross (which single fruit you don't want to damage or lose) then why not do some experiments with bags on or off to test if they do ripen faster. I would be interested to hear your methods and results.
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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#14

Post: # 47914Unread post Barmaley
Tue Jun 01, 2021 9:04 pm

"...ethylene from the green ripe fruit blowing away on the wind..." Does green tomato fruit produces ethylene? What ethylene does to tomatoes anyway?

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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#15

Post: # 48018Unread post bower
Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:21 pm

Ripening fruit produce ethylene gas, and it helps them to ripen. It is part of the natural process for tomatoes, that they give off ethylene. So do bananas and apples, and other "climacteric fruit".
Commercial tomato crops are picked when green ripe and kept in cool storage so they don't ripen until they arrive at the shipping destination. There they are exposed to ethylene in order to ripen them for sale.
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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#16

Post: # 48088Unread post Barmaley
Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:53 pm

Bower wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:21 pm Commercial tomato crops are picked when green ripe and kept in cool storage so they don't ripen until they arrive at the shipping destination. There they are exposed to ethylene in order to ripen them for sale.
Does it mean that supermarket tomatoes are tasteless not because they were picked green and ripen with gasses but because the variety is tasteless? It does not make sense! What prevents farmers to grow good varieties if taste does not change on green ripe fruit?

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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#17

Post: # 48089Unread post Sue_CT
Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:19 pm

It is my understanding that Ethylene gas causes the skin to turn color. That is technically not necessarily the same as ripening, which allows the sugars to develop and the taste to improve and the seed to mature. Once natural color or blushing starts, I believe that the fruit can and will continue to mature off the plant. It will develop better taste during this time. But "gassing" a green tomato with ethylene gas so that the skin turns red can result in a red, hard, unripe fruit and sometimes even mushy, tasteless fruit. Think the old fashioned hard red tomatoes in a 4 pack covered with cellophane in the grocery stores "back in the day". I would never ripen tomatoes in a bag or on a window sill in the sun. For the best flavor and natural ripening, they should ripen inside on a counter or similar place OUT of the sun. Tomatoes do not need sun to ripen, that is why the leaves of the plant shade the fruit from the sun while it is developing. Without that, fruit is in danger of getting sun scald. Much of this I first learned from Carolyn Male, and it was seconded and reinforced by other experts in the forum at the time.

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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#18

Post: # 48094Unread post MrBig46
Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:47 pm

Barmaley wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:53 pm
Bower wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:21 pm Commercial tomato crops are picked when green ripe and kept in cool storage so they don't ripen until they arrive at the shipping destination. There they are exposed to ethylene in order to ripen them for sale.
Does it mean that supermarket tomatoes are tasteless not because they were picked green and ripen with gasses but because the variety is tasteless? It does not make sense! What prevents farmers to grow good varieties if taste does not change on green ripe fruit?
Tomatoes from the supermarket therefore have no taste, because the breeding focused on making the tomatoes LSL (long shelf life). They have one particular gene less and therefore they never mature in order their taste is comparable to old varieties.
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Re: Seed saving unripe tomato

#19

Post: # 48113Unread post loulac
Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:32 pm

The riper the better
When I gave half ripe tomatoes to friends that would eat them in salad and asked them to keep seeds for me I had a poor germination rate. Now I gather my seeds myself from extra ripe tomatoes, sometimes from tomatoes fallen on the ground. A safe way is to gather seeds from overipe tomatoes when I pick them up for sauce.

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