Rogues

[KateL]

I am reading "soft fruit growing" by Raymond Bush, published in 1948. It has some interesting info e.g. reporting how restricted tomato supplies during WWII led to British large-scale tomato variety trials.

He also says "now we have a bush tomato" so this must have been a new development....

But in the tomato "planting out" section I saw this passage about "rogues" & am baffled.....Is this a real thing?

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[bower]

That is certainly interesting...
Rogue is more commonly used as a verb in gardening afaik. You 'rogue out' unhealthy or runt plants in the garlic for example, to avoid spreading disease to your crop.
Rogue here could refer to the seedlings you sometimes get which germinated a bit later or came from a smaller seed and just aren't the most bumptious of the lot. We don't usually plant them since there are usually extras of the big and healthy ones. But he says they are 'sturdy' and have a lot of leaves. So it sounds like it's some kind of dwarfing trait. Being the genetics of dwarfing are complicated, it's not out of the question that these 'rogues' were being thrown from time to time in specific varieties that he was growing?
Also the notion that rogues are more common when taking seed from the lower truss, this doesn't sound like any tomatoes I've ever grown. I often save seed from first fruits, and I've never had many runts. I would say, even with saved and swapped or purchased seeds, I've only seen runts at a rate of maybe 0-2%.
It is hard to fathom genetically, why the lower trusses would produce more rogues, if it is a dwarfing trait.

[JRinPA]

That is an interesting find, thanks for posting. I'd love to read the rest of that.

With modern tomatoes...boy I have no idea what that is referring to. I would suggest the word here would be "runt". Don't plant a runt, makes sense. But shorter size with more leaves? And did his plants only produce four trusses, two bottom and two top?

[Setec Astronomy]

And did his plants only produce four trusses, two bottom and two top?

Brad Gates over at Wild Boar says something like "tomatoes have changed more in the last 10 years than in their entire existence" or something like that...so who knows. Just like Siamese cats don't look like they used to.

[KateL]

That is an interesting find, thanks for posting. I'd love to read the rest of that.

It's really interesting! And anyone who lists "the study of spring frosts" among their hobbies must have a pretty good sense of humour....

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[Setec Astronomy]

Wow, fascinating. I'm impressed at the condition of that book, or was it printed much later than during the war? I see it says "revised edition" on the front.

Also, contrary to my comment above, it seems like the tomato breeding process was not much different back then.

And what a bit of historical trivia, that during the war the Ministry of Agriculture had relocated to a hotel on the sea, presumably from London or another city that was getting bombed. And that the author/publisher must have thought they would still be there by the time the book was published and people tried to obtain the leaflet. Kind of a sad commentary on optimism in wartime, or lack therof.

[MissS]

I myself have never experienced a mass of 'rogue' tomato plants and I certainly have not seen a difference in plants from seed saved at the bottom as opposed to the top. My thoughts are the same as Bower's that perhaps what was being culled were plants that carried the dwarf gene. Of course none of us can say that for certain without growing one of the rogue's out.

This is a very fun and interesting read. Thank you so much for sharing it!

[Whwoz]

Wondering if what he is talking about is some of the old compact plants like KY1. Still readily available here.

[KateL]

@Setec Astronomy the book was first published in 1942 and this copy / edition is 1948.

Your comment about varieties evolving is completely true- even in 1948, Raymond Bush says "It will probably be noticed that very few of the varieties of tomato recommended are to be found mentioned in gardening books save of comparatively recent publication....... Old and trusted varieties which were well enough a few years ago have been superseded by better performers and it would be unwise to suppose that in ten years' time some of the newcomers of today will not have made their bow and retired to make place for others"

[bower]

I notice that a couple of those varieties mentioned are still in common circulation, but haven't heard of the others on this side of the pond... Do you ever see "Radio" or "Plumpton King", "Sunrise", "Potentate" or the Stonor varieties, @KateL ?

[MissS]

I also noticed that 6-8 lbs of tomatoes from a plant was considered a great harvest. Not so by today's standards. Something that we all can be glad about.

[KateL]

@Bower I don't remember seeing those varieties you mention before. It's interesting which ones are still well known

[Shule]

Here are some links that might be interesting to readers of this topic:
* https://www.grit.com/food/history-of-to ... z1504zdeh/
* The Field and Garden Vegetables of America, 1863, by Fearing Burr, Jr. (It talks about tomatoes near the end of the book, right before the index.)
* The 1965 edition