Pippin's family photos 2021
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Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Evil Olive family
I have already shared some pictures from this family under the “Intense Pigment” topic but let’s have some more here. EO is a very special tomato, difficult to describe if you have not seen or tasted it before. It is indeterminate plant with very dark green foliage and orange-green fruits that sometimes have bright red center. Some claim it to be a cherry but I have always had more of the saladette size tomatoes. The consistency of the fruit is meaty and buttery when fully ripe, with sweetness and savory notes, very pleasant and unique. It was one of my favorite tomatoes for a couple of seasons because it was so strange, impossible to place anywhere previously known to me in the tomato spectrum. This tomato probably divides people, some may not like it at all, but I actually see a lot of potential on it. My only real dislike is that EO is jointless and consequently difficult to pick without damaging the fruit (unless using scissors). Some European sources refer to “K 54-84” as the original name of this cultivar.
It was very clear form my F1 that EO has some of those dominant orange genes. The F1 hybrid tomatoes were very good tasting, and the expression of the orange was very clear even when the fruit was ripe. The F1 was one of my favorite tomatoes of the season.
I was growing the F2 generation in 2021. I sowed 60 F2 seeds in total, planted them next to each other into a row, cut out all clearly indeterminate plants early (probably one or two determinates too) and saved seeds from nine F2 plants. I still seem to have an orange gene, hopefully Beta, remaining in this family, as well as a high pigment gene.
Below some pictures from various F2 plants, some of which hopefully expressing the orange gene. These tomatoes are quite slowly ripening, and the growth habit was mostly very compact. These were growing outside, directly under the sky, which means the F3 may still be more spreading when they get to more favorable growing conditions. The flavor is still average (which is the case for all tomatoes that I have grown outside in Finland) but I am not that worried about the flavor yet as it will likely improve when growing in the tunnel. The potential high pigment gene may also make the plants and fruits more compact.
One of my favorites was below pink/purple tomato with very good expression of green shoulders. It must have the gf gene as well because the shoulders remains green when ripe. Unfortunately, the plant architecture was not the most compact one but I am still planning to follow this individual to F3 generation. The very first fruit was multi-locus, rest little bit less so.
Plant architecture wise, one plant really stood out as a compact and prolific one. It has also pink fruit, and it is uniform. At breaker stage, the tomatoes looked quite orange which might be a promise of an orange gene still there. The tomatoes changed the color from orange to pink and finally towards muddy as the gel remained green. As you can see in the below pictures, the tomatoes do not really look like they were from the same plant. I did pick these tomatoes very early, as the weather changed dramatically from drought to heavy rains. Anyway, this individual will probably get many seeds planted in season 2022.
I have already shared some pictures from this family under the “Intense Pigment” topic but let’s have some more here. EO is a very special tomato, difficult to describe if you have not seen or tasted it before. It is indeterminate plant with very dark green foliage and orange-green fruits that sometimes have bright red center. Some claim it to be a cherry but I have always had more of the saladette size tomatoes. The consistency of the fruit is meaty and buttery when fully ripe, with sweetness and savory notes, very pleasant and unique. It was one of my favorite tomatoes for a couple of seasons because it was so strange, impossible to place anywhere previously known to me in the tomato spectrum. This tomato probably divides people, some may not like it at all, but I actually see a lot of potential on it. My only real dislike is that EO is jointless and consequently difficult to pick without damaging the fruit (unless using scissors). Some European sources refer to “K 54-84” as the original name of this cultivar.
It was very clear form my F1 that EO has some of those dominant orange genes. The F1 hybrid tomatoes were very good tasting, and the expression of the orange was very clear even when the fruit was ripe. The F1 was one of my favorite tomatoes of the season.
I was growing the F2 generation in 2021. I sowed 60 F2 seeds in total, planted them next to each other into a row, cut out all clearly indeterminate plants early (probably one or two determinates too) and saved seeds from nine F2 plants. I still seem to have an orange gene, hopefully Beta, remaining in this family, as well as a high pigment gene.
Below some pictures from various F2 plants, some of which hopefully expressing the orange gene. These tomatoes are quite slowly ripening, and the growth habit was mostly very compact. These were growing outside, directly under the sky, which means the F3 may still be more spreading when they get to more favorable growing conditions. The flavor is still average (which is the case for all tomatoes that I have grown outside in Finland) but I am not that worried about the flavor yet as it will likely improve when growing in the tunnel. The potential high pigment gene may also make the plants and fruits more compact.
One of my favorites was below pink/purple tomato with very good expression of green shoulders. It must have the gf gene as well because the shoulders remains green when ripe. Unfortunately, the plant architecture was not the most compact one but I am still planning to follow this individual to F3 generation. The very first fruit was multi-locus, rest little bit less so.
Plant architecture wise, one plant really stood out as a compact and prolific one. It has also pink fruit, and it is uniform. At breaker stage, the tomatoes looked quite orange which might be a promise of an orange gene still there. The tomatoes changed the color from orange to pink and finally towards muddy as the gel remained green. As you can see in the below pictures, the tomatoes do not really look like they were from the same plant. I did pick these tomatoes very early, as the weather changed dramatically from drought to heavy rains. Anyway, this individual will probably get many seeds planted in season 2022.
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BR,
Pippin
Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
I love the range of colors in these, and your fabulous cluster size. They look great and will really be fun to grow out and select from so many possibilities. 
AgCan Zone 5a/USDA zone 4
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
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Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
The Aftershock family
I have already shared some pictures from this family in the bicolor (ry) discussion but just to make this family photo thread complete, let’s have some also here.
Aftershock has never been much of a producer for me, however, the variety is obviously special as it has many interesting genes: bicolor (ry), green flesh (fg), and green stripes (gs). I made the original cross to my compact pink cherry in 2019 and the F1 was just very normal looking red cherry in an indeterminate RL plant. The original Aftershock is a (rugosa) dwarf RL indeterminate plant producing saladette size tomatoes. My Afteshock was very clearly PL, so it may have segregated more after the release. Vipers are siblings of Aftershock and at least Spud Viper has PL too.
The F2 generation was grown in 2021. I sowed one seed planting tray (60 cells), 2-3 seeds in each cell – and cut out all dwarf and PL plants. I like PL plants very much as they are often better tasting, however, there is supposed to be a link between the indeterminate growth habit and the PL trait that is difficult to break. So it was easier to assumed that all PLs would be indeterminate than grow them bigger and screen the flowing habit. The remaining plants were grown outside, next to each other in a single row as described earlier. During the season, I simply cut away all RL indeterminate plants (i.e. inflorescence followed by three leaves). With this method, I got only eight determinate plants, so I may have cut away some determinate plants too.
The remaining plants were quite large, bushy and leafy but luckily still non-spreading. No signs of elongated inter nodes in these growing conditions. Tomatoes started ripening very late, one did not manage to ripe any fruit before the frost. I almost lost my interest to the complete family as the tomatoes started splitting in the heavy rains. There was one stand-out plant but the rest started to look like waist of time. But then I picked some split tomatoes, obviously ruined by the rain, and started to wonder if the uneven watery red was not because of the rain but because of the ry gene. And it was. In below pics, you can see the original split tomatoes and others in better condition: they don’t look like tomatoes from the same plant but they are. 
So I learned that it may be difficult to spot a ripe fruit from these ry plants as the color outside is sometimes uneven and strange.
Yet again, there was one plant that had exceptionally compact growth habit that stood out very early in the season. It is a boring pink, none of the exciting tomato color genes expressed on it, however, I still consider it as the most promising plant in this family. It was prolific, having a huge cluster of tomatoes that terminated the growth of the main stem early. The plant is very short, much smaller than the rest of family. Maybe little earlier than others too. Hopefully, it will segregate some interesting color combinations next season – but even if it didn’t, it is a very clear keeper.
The other favorite of mine was the brown/purple tomato with very strong green shoulders. I have started liking these little muddy, dirty colors, they are so rustic and beautiful. There was one striped and other bi-colors in the bunch too. I had one surprisingly sweet and good tasting pink tomato from this cross too which is rare considering the growing conditions. The only real dislikes so-far are the lateness and the larger plant size.
I have already shared some pictures from this family in the bicolor (ry) discussion but just to make this family photo thread complete, let’s have some also here.
Aftershock has never been much of a producer for me, however, the variety is obviously special as it has many interesting genes: bicolor (ry), green flesh (fg), and green stripes (gs). I made the original cross to my compact pink cherry in 2019 and the F1 was just very normal looking red cherry in an indeterminate RL plant. The original Aftershock is a (rugosa) dwarf RL indeterminate plant producing saladette size tomatoes. My Afteshock was very clearly PL, so it may have segregated more after the release. Vipers are siblings of Aftershock and at least Spud Viper has PL too.
The F2 generation was grown in 2021. I sowed one seed planting tray (60 cells), 2-3 seeds in each cell – and cut out all dwarf and PL plants. I like PL plants very much as they are often better tasting, however, there is supposed to be a link between the indeterminate growth habit and the PL trait that is difficult to break. So it was easier to assumed that all PLs would be indeterminate than grow them bigger and screen the flowing habit. The remaining plants were grown outside, next to each other in a single row as described earlier. During the season, I simply cut away all RL indeterminate plants (i.e. inflorescence followed by three leaves). With this method, I got only eight determinate plants, so I may have cut away some determinate plants too.
The remaining plants were quite large, bushy and leafy but luckily still non-spreading. No signs of elongated inter nodes in these growing conditions. Tomatoes started ripening very late, one did not manage to ripe any fruit before the frost. I almost lost my interest to the complete family as the tomatoes started splitting in the heavy rains. There was one stand-out plant but the rest started to look like waist of time. But then I picked some split tomatoes, obviously ruined by the rain, and started to wonder if the uneven watery red was not because of the rain but because of the ry gene. And it was.
In below pics, you can see the original split tomatoes and others in better condition: they don’t look like tomatoes from the same plant but they are. So I learned that it may be difficult to spot a ripe fruit from these ry plants as the color outside is sometimes uneven and strange. Yet again, there was one plant that had exceptionally compact growth habit that stood out very early in the season. It is a boring pink, none of the exciting tomato color genes expressed on it, however, I still consider it as the most promising plant in this family. It was prolific, having a huge cluster of tomatoes that terminated the growth of the main stem early. The plant is very short, much smaller than the rest of family. Maybe little earlier than others too. Hopefully, it will segregate some interesting color combinations next season – but even if it didn’t, it is a very clear keeper.
The other favorite of mine was the brown/purple tomato with very strong green shoulders. I have started liking these little muddy, dirty colors, they are so rustic and beautiful. There was one striped and other bi-colors in the bunch too. I had one surprisingly sweet and good tasting pink tomato from this cross too which is rare considering the growing conditions. The only real dislikes so-far are the lateness and the larger plant size.
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BR,
Pippin
Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Another line with fantastic variety of colors... very pretty. I really admire the amount of progress towards your goals in just a few years. Some lines are more on target than others but that in itself is a huge step, as it gives you strong material for backcrossing if another line is reluctant to settle down to the very specific growth habit, and to re-select for the different tastes and colors.
I really look forward to seeing how these crosses unfold as years go on...
Wishing you a happy new year, @Pippin and a successful season in 2022.
I really look forward to seeing how these crosses unfold as years go on...
Wishing you a happy new year, @Pippin and a successful season in 2022.
AgCan Zone 5a/USDA zone 4
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
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Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Thanks for your kind words, @Bower, you are always so wise, friendly and supportive. Happy new year to you too, and many more tomato crosses in season 2022! 
It must have been Carolyn back in Tville (where I used to lurk without access) who was telling to a newbie to specify the goals of the breeding project before making the actual crosses. That was a simple but very good advice. I dropped many of my random crosses, and started focusing only on this one phenotype.
Seven families done, five more to go.
It must have been Carolyn back in Tville (where I used to lurk without access) who was telling to a newbie to specify the goals of the breeding project before making the actual crosses. That was a simple but very good advice. I dropped many of my random crosses, and started focusing only on this one phenotype.
Seven families done, five more to go.
BR,
Pippin
Pippin
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Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Maglia rosa family
No need to introduce MR as it is so liked, well-known and famous. The flavor of the tomato is praised by many, and it is supposed to have a flavor peak before full ripening. Extremely productive too, no doubt about it, firm and non-cracking. Maybe not the sweetest tomato but still one of the best flavor wise.
MR is a determinate slender tomato plant that is still somewhat sprawling and lush. It has this strange reproductive growth habit by starting new growth almost from every lateral pud. When the terminal bud stops growing and starts flowering, others below will activate and continue to grow even higher. This makes the plant very spreading. It also has a tendency of growing roots from the stems, much more than other cultivars. Must have something to do with exceptional mixture of plant hormones in the plant, auxins or gibberellins or similar.
It would make an excellent parent for a F1 hybrid. At least my F1 tomatoes was very good tasting, firm and sweet. My F1 plant size was intermediate between the compact pink cherry and MR. I found the below picture of the F1 too (which reminds me that I should more carefully document the F1 generation too, both the fruit and the growing patterns, as it often helps in recognizing the heterozygote traits later in the process).
As the MR is already a pink, there was not that much to expect color wise from a cross with a uniform pink cherry, other than the green stripes and the form of the tomato. Surprisingly, I did see some green shoulders among F2, even more so that I though was present in MR. It would be really nice if I could stabilize the green shoulders from this family.
The total F2 grow-out was one 60 cell tray, mostly two seeds in each of the cells (which would make at least 120 plants in total). These plants were planted outside but I also put two plants under cover just to get some understanding how the flavor was developing in better conditions. The plants outside had average flavor but the ones inside were really good. It took great strength and discipline to destroy most of the plants outside during the growing season as most of the plants did not have the flowering pattern I was looking for. In the end, I saved seeds from nine plants in total, one of which having exceptionally promising plant architecture, others being also in the more compact, non-spreading side of the spectrum.
Below is some samples what the F2 fruits looked like. I definitely like the ones with splashes of green better than uniforms. I actually also like those round small tomatoes too, as the goal here is not to mimic the original MR but to create something new. But these really needs more screening and selection in the next season as the biggest uncertainty remains to be the growing habit and how spreading or restricted it will be.
There were more than one compact plants, however, only one was a clear stand-out. This plant was very compact and had almost perfect “three crowns” flowering pattern. The cluster of tomatoes that terminates the main stem is very large, probably because the inflorescence in the first cluster are forked, making the cluster heavy in fruit. Good fertility and pollination too, probably because the plants were outside exposed to wind. Unfortunately, no stripes or green shoulders in this one but the cluster size is the biggest I have seen in these plants. Interesting to see in next season if this plant architecture is already stable or not.
No need to introduce MR as it is so liked, well-known and famous. The flavor of the tomato is praised by many, and it is supposed to have a flavor peak before full ripening. Extremely productive too, no doubt about it, firm and non-cracking. Maybe not the sweetest tomato but still one of the best flavor wise.
MR is a determinate slender tomato plant that is still somewhat sprawling and lush. It has this strange reproductive growth habit by starting new growth almost from every lateral pud. When the terminal bud stops growing and starts flowering, others below will activate and continue to grow even higher. This makes the plant very spreading. It also has a tendency of growing roots from the stems, much more than other cultivars. Must have something to do with exceptional mixture of plant hormones in the plant, auxins or gibberellins or similar.
It would make an excellent parent for a F1 hybrid. At least my F1 tomatoes was very good tasting, firm and sweet. My F1 plant size was intermediate between the compact pink cherry and MR. I found the below picture of the F1 too (which reminds me that I should more carefully document the F1 generation too, both the fruit and the growing patterns, as it often helps in recognizing the heterozygote traits later in the process).
As the MR is already a pink, there was not that much to expect color wise from a cross with a uniform pink cherry, other than the green stripes and the form of the tomato. Surprisingly, I did see some green shoulders among F2, even more so that I though was present in MR. It would be really nice if I could stabilize the green shoulders from this family.
The total F2 grow-out was one 60 cell tray, mostly two seeds in each of the cells (which would make at least 120 plants in total). These plants were planted outside but I also put two plants under cover just to get some understanding how the flavor was developing in better conditions. The plants outside had average flavor but the ones inside were really good. It took great strength and discipline to destroy most of the plants outside during the growing season as most of the plants did not have the flowering pattern I was looking for. In the end, I saved seeds from nine plants in total, one of which having exceptionally promising plant architecture, others being also in the more compact, non-spreading side of the spectrum.
Below is some samples what the F2 fruits looked like. I definitely like the ones with splashes of green better than uniforms. I actually also like those round small tomatoes too, as the goal here is not to mimic the original MR but to create something new. But these really needs more screening and selection in the next season as the biggest uncertainty remains to be the growing habit and how spreading or restricted it will be.
There were more than one compact plants, however, only one was a clear stand-out. This plant was very compact and had almost perfect “three crowns” flowering pattern. The cluster of tomatoes that terminates the main stem is very large, probably because the inflorescence in the first cluster are forked, making the cluster heavy in fruit. Good fertility and pollination too, probably because the plants were outside exposed to wind. Unfortunately, no stripes or green shoulders in this one but the cluster size is the biggest I have seen in these plants. Interesting to see in next season if this plant architecture is already stable or not.
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BR,
Pippin
Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Justyna family
I am sure many of you know Justyna, a variety selected by Tatiana from a cross made by Tom W between Mountain Roma and a F2 Sun Sugar. It has smallish, plum-shaped fruits, wispy leaves, and indeterminate growth habit. The tomatoes are orange, and they have a strong expression of green shoulders before full ripening and a pointy tip at the blossom end. Sweet and sour, very good taste.
Justyna is a rare variety in the sense that Tatiana has published the selection history in her tomatobase. Based on Tatiana’s F2 to F4 segregation description in http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Serenity, the cross potentially included both a dominant and recessive orange gene. Orange unstable tomatoes segregated to both red and orange colors (indicating a likely dominant orange gene) but also the red tomatoes segregated to both red and orange (indicating a likely recessive orange gene).
My Justyna plants were semi-determinate plants (about 120 cm or little higher), not indeterminate, maybe it had segregated after the release. I was very much hoping Justyna would have a dominant orange gene (as Tatiana was very clearly selecting the dominant orange lines). However, my F1 (in the below picture) had only some very weak orange expression in the beginning of the ripening but turned very soon to plain red, giving an early indication that the orange color in Justyna might be because of the tangerine gene. I didn't want to believe this at the time but the later evidence points strongly towards the tangerine gene.
I grew the F2 generation in two patches during 2021 season: 10 seeds early in the spring just to see how it segregated, and about 120 later in the season for mass selection. It was clear from the small per-screening patch that the mass selection was going to be challenging as none of the 10 plants were compact, instead I saw only larger, more spreading types. I saved only one from these first 10 plants to be grown to full maturity in a container. This plant had very clearly very different colored flowers, giving a second indication that Justyna may inherit tangerine gene. I also back-crossed this individual with a red tomato from the Vnuchenka family. I managed to grow one F1 back-cross plant later in the season to produce the F2 seeds and the F1 fruit was a very clear red.
Below pictures are from this container grown plant. It is surprisingly similar to the original Justyna although the plant is little more compact. In the last picture the orange color is very intensive (which almost looks too orange for a tangerine tomato) but that is probably because those fruits were hanging in the push for very long time and are almost over ripe. The tomatoes tasted good but not very sweet. The flavor and sweetness seems to improve when the tomatoes gets really ripe.
The mass selection phase was very painful because almost none of the plants remained compact. The stress level of mine was very high as I needed to kill many orange fruited plants (which had tangerine flowers) because they had wrong flowering pattern and were supposed to be too spreading.
Only two orange flowering plants remained and both of them had orange fruits. All the rest were yellow flower plants with red fruits but unfortunately not compact enough to be saved. I selected only the orange fruited plants from this family to go forward. The below pictures are from the most promising individual which has beautiful orange round fruits with good amount of green in the shoulders when immature.
I am sure many of you know Justyna, a variety selected by Tatiana from a cross made by Tom W between Mountain Roma and a F2 Sun Sugar. It has smallish, plum-shaped fruits, wispy leaves, and indeterminate growth habit. The tomatoes are orange, and they have a strong expression of green shoulders before full ripening and a pointy tip at the blossom end. Sweet and sour, very good taste.
Justyna is a rare variety in the sense that Tatiana has published the selection history in her tomatobase. Based on Tatiana’s F2 to F4 segregation description in http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Serenity, the cross potentially included both a dominant and recessive orange gene. Orange unstable tomatoes segregated to both red and orange colors (indicating a likely dominant orange gene) but also the red tomatoes segregated to both red and orange (indicating a likely recessive orange gene).
My Justyna plants were semi-determinate plants (about 120 cm or little higher), not indeterminate, maybe it had segregated after the release. I was very much hoping Justyna would have a dominant orange gene (as Tatiana was very clearly selecting the dominant orange lines). However, my F1 (in the below picture) had only some very weak orange expression in the beginning of the ripening but turned very soon to plain red, giving an early indication that the orange color in Justyna might be because of the tangerine gene. I didn't want to believe this at the time but the later evidence points strongly towards the tangerine gene.
I grew the F2 generation in two patches during 2021 season: 10 seeds early in the spring just to see how it segregated, and about 120 later in the season for mass selection. It was clear from the small per-screening patch that the mass selection was going to be challenging as none of the 10 plants were compact, instead I saw only larger, more spreading types. I saved only one from these first 10 plants to be grown to full maturity in a container. This plant had very clearly very different colored flowers, giving a second indication that Justyna may inherit tangerine gene. I also back-crossed this individual with a red tomato from the Vnuchenka family. I managed to grow one F1 back-cross plant later in the season to produce the F2 seeds and the F1 fruit was a very clear red.
Below pictures are from this container grown plant. It is surprisingly similar to the original Justyna although the plant is little more compact. In the last picture the orange color is very intensive (which almost looks too orange for a tangerine tomato) but that is probably because those fruits were hanging in the push for very long time and are almost over ripe. The tomatoes tasted good but not very sweet. The flavor and sweetness seems to improve when the tomatoes gets really ripe.
The mass selection phase was very painful because almost none of the plants remained compact. The stress level of mine was very high as I needed to kill many orange fruited plants (which had tangerine flowers) because they had wrong flowering pattern and were supposed to be too spreading.
Only two orange flowering plants remained and both of them had orange fruits. All the rest were yellow flower plants with red fruits but unfortunately not compact enough to be saved. I selected only the orange fruited plants from this family to go forward. The below pictures are from the most promising individual which has beautiful orange round fruits with good amount of green in the shoulders when immature.
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BR,
Pippin
Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Katiebell family
Katiebell is a commercial F1 hybrid producing yellow, plum shaped, cherry size tomatoes, some call it a “baby plum”. It is very similar to Luciebell, just yellow. Not sure if it is officially a high brix variety but it sure is sweet. This is one of the cultivars that I started saving seeds before I used it as a parent for a cross. When saving the seeds, I did not observe any changes in the color of the tomato, however, it segregated from indeterminate to semi determinate growth habit very soon. All Fn generations have been very sweet, if not the sweetest tomato I have, however, the tomatoes also become more prone to cracking if not irrigated carefully.
I made the cross with one of my Katiebell Fn determinate plants. The parent plant was some 140 cm of height, not the most compact determinate plant that is. The goal really was to find a compact and sweet yellow tomato.
The F2 generation was grown during 2021, some 120 seeds in a 60 cell tray. Many many plants were removed before the full maturity because of the sprawling growth habit, and the rest were mainly red and pink cherry tomatoes, only two were yellow. The plants looked quite different from the rest of the families as the shoots were rather thin and the leaves on the smaller size, making the plants looking little fragile and slender. Also the tomatoes themselves are rather small but I have seen it before that they may still become larger in the next generations.
Below some pictures from the selected two yellow tomato plants. As there was this heavy rain before ripening, some cracking and splitting can be observed. The picture of the halved tomatoes shows that the flesh of the tomato is really white. I wish this family would still segregate to clear skin yellows because it would probably make quite beautiful white cherry tomato.
I saved seeds from reds and pinks as well. One individual had really nice clusters of pink tomatoes. Maybe the uniform (u) gene makes the tomatoes of the plant in the picture look so ridiculously piggy pink. I think the other pinks were not this "piggy". Interesting to see if this one still segregates to yellow.
Katiebell is a commercial F1 hybrid producing yellow, plum shaped, cherry size tomatoes, some call it a “baby plum”. It is very similar to Luciebell, just yellow. Not sure if it is officially a high brix variety but it sure is sweet. This is one of the cultivars that I started saving seeds before I used it as a parent for a cross. When saving the seeds, I did not observe any changes in the color of the tomato, however, it segregated from indeterminate to semi determinate growth habit very soon. All Fn generations have been very sweet, if not the sweetest tomato I have, however, the tomatoes also become more prone to cracking if not irrigated carefully.
I made the cross with one of my Katiebell Fn determinate plants. The parent plant was some 140 cm of height, not the most compact determinate plant that is. The goal really was to find a compact and sweet yellow tomato.
The F2 generation was grown during 2021, some 120 seeds in a 60 cell tray. Many many plants were removed before the full maturity because of the sprawling growth habit, and the rest were mainly red and pink cherry tomatoes, only two were yellow. The plants looked quite different from the rest of the families as the shoots were rather thin and the leaves on the smaller size, making the plants looking little fragile and slender. Also the tomatoes themselves are rather small but I have seen it before that they may still become larger in the next generations.
Below some pictures from the selected two yellow tomato plants. As there was this heavy rain before ripening, some cracking and splitting can be observed. The picture of the halved tomatoes shows that the flesh of the tomato is really white. I wish this family would still segregate to clear skin yellows because it would probably make quite beautiful white cherry tomato.
I saved seeds from reds and pinks as well. One individual had really nice clusters of pink tomatoes. Maybe the uniform (u) gene makes the tomatoes of the plant in the picture look so ridiculously piggy pink. I think the other pinks were not this "piggy".
Interesting to see if this one still segregates to yellow. You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Pippin on Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BR,
Pippin
Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Beautiful shapes and colors - the orange pointed fruit from Justyna is just a luscious orange! And I do love those perfect pinks.
I had a yellow line involving pear shape and long pointed shape, and in the segregation there were certain shape combinations that were insanely prone to split. I think if you have those shape genes segregating you can select away from it, though. It's so nice to have different shapes especially in a saladette or cherry fruit.
I had a yellow line involving pear shape and long pointed shape, and in the segregation there were certain shape combinations that were insanely prone to split. I think if you have those shape genes segregating you can select away from it, though. It's so nice to have different shapes especially in a saladette or cherry fruit.
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temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
This splitting is really a pain, I hope I can get rid of it at some point. The other parent in the cross does not split easily, so I have still hope that the skin gets firmer in the next generation. I was thinking of growing a full 60 cell tray of the Katies in a tunnel next summer to protect them from rain and to really see what variation there still is in F3 generation. It is not the most interesting cross but I feel I need to invest on it e.g. to find that wonderful sweetness that the original Katiebell has. One reddish-orange Katie F2 was very sweet already last summer when grown outside.
BR,
Pippin
Pippin
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Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Green Sausage family
GrS is relatively compact determinate tomato plant that produces green and meaty paste type tomatoes. It has prostrate growing habit and it likes to grow horizontally, almost downwards. Very difficult to force growing upwards on a string or other support. Some people report BER problems, I had some minor BER in the F1 but have not seen it afterwards. Many seed companies mentions Green Sleeves as the original cultivar name and Tom W as the original breeder.
Below is a picture of my original F1 cross with GrS as one of the parents. It is a good example that green stripes may sometimes be visible as heterozygote when the gene combination is favorable. The green stripes should normally behave like a recessive and be not visible in F1. The F1 fruits were very sweet and good tasting which made me doing a back-crossing line already at this stage.
I observed three different plant sizes in the F2 generation. I haven’t tried to further investigate this issue but I assume that GrS has a non-rugosa dwarf gene different from the one in my other parent. So, there are potentially two dwarf genes involved in this cross, one from each parent.
Below pictures demonstrate the both extremes of the plants sizes in F2, as well as the prostrate growth habit. I saved seeds from these yellow small tomatoes that were growing on this very compact plant. The plant next to the yellow with red tomatoes is huge as seen in the second picture.
Overall, the F2 generation was little disappointment as some tomatoes clearly had very slow and uneven ripening, and the flavor was more on the acidic side than sweet. There were interesting colors and stripes, green shoulders and even some variation in the intensity of the green in leafs and unripe uniform fruits, however, I was not really inspired by any and needed to force myself to save seeds from some. It could be that I will use this family more of a donor of interesting genes to other families than a family of its own.
The GrS family was mainly at F2 stage during 2021, however, I had some plants in F3 generation too. Some of these were quite sweet when ripe, and were back-crossed to Vnuchenka family during 2021.
Below plant was selected because it had darker green leaves and more intense color fruits than the rest. It looks almost like it had some high pigment gene. Not the most compact plant though.
The next was selected because the plant size and growing habit was rather compact. I also like the longer fruit and stripes, however, the flavor was little short.
Here the tomatoes are little bit too large for my liking but I still thought it was worth growing at least one more season.
Below one might be a double dwarf, similar to the earlier yellow one, as the plant size was so small. I think it also has the green flesh gene, not very clearly expressed in the picture though. Good amount of flesh for such a small berry.
The remaining three are all F3 siblings from the same F2 line. The F2 was a very pretty, dark purple tomato. The first below has this strange “rosy” color. Late and little uneven ripening, very firm and non-cracking.
Yet another purple/rosy F3 tomato, this one with tiny tip at the blossom end. The green shoulders turned to dirty yellowish-brown when fully ripe (which I found strange but also appealing). Not sure if that is genetic or something from the environment.
And finally my favorite tomato from this family, a longer purple F3. Very strange form for this small tomato, a stretched plum, a tube or something. The color is intensive, very dark red inside, most likely has the green flesh gene. And this one tasted good as well. The plant architecture may not be compact enough, however, this one was used already as a parent in another cross so at least the genes are about to go forward.
GrS is relatively compact determinate tomato plant that produces green and meaty paste type tomatoes. It has prostrate growing habit and it likes to grow horizontally, almost downwards. Very difficult to force growing upwards on a string or other support. Some people report BER problems, I had some minor BER in the F1 but have not seen it afterwards. Many seed companies mentions Green Sleeves as the original cultivar name and Tom W as the original breeder.
Below is a picture of my original F1 cross with GrS as one of the parents. It is a good example that green stripes may sometimes be visible as heterozygote when the gene combination is favorable. The green stripes should normally behave like a recessive and be not visible in F1. The F1 fruits were very sweet and good tasting which made me doing a back-crossing line already at this stage.
I observed three different plant sizes in the F2 generation. I haven’t tried to further investigate this issue but I assume that GrS has a non-rugosa dwarf gene different from the one in my other parent. So, there are potentially two dwarf genes involved in this cross, one from each parent.
Below pictures demonstrate the both extremes of the plants sizes in F2, as well as the prostrate growth habit. I saved seeds from these yellow small tomatoes that were growing on this very compact plant. The plant next to the yellow with red tomatoes is huge as seen in the second picture.
Overall, the F2 generation was little disappointment as some tomatoes clearly had very slow and uneven ripening, and the flavor was more on the acidic side than sweet. There were interesting colors and stripes, green shoulders and even some variation in the intensity of the green in leafs and unripe uniform fruits, however, I was not really inspired by any and needed to force myself to save seeds from some. It could be that I will use this family more of a donor of interesting genes to other families than a family of its own.
The GrS family was mainly at F2 stage during 2021, however, I had some plants in F3 generation too. Some of these were quite sweet when ripe, and were back-crossed to Vnuchenka family during 2021.
Below plant was selected because it had darker green leaves and more intense color fruits than the rest. It looks almost like it had some high pigment gene. Not the most compact plant though.
The next was selected because the plant size and growing habit was rather compact. I also like the longer fruit and stripes, however, the flavor was little short.
Here the tomatoes are little bit too large for my liking but I still thought it was worth growing at least one more season.
Below one might be a double dwarf, similar to the earlier yellow one, as the plant size was so small. I think it also has the green flesh gene, not very clearly expressed in the picture though. Good amount of flesh for such a small berry.
The remaining three are all F3 siblings from the same F2 line. The F2 was a very pretty, dark purple tomato. The first below has this strange “rosy” color. Late and little uneven ripening, very firm and non-cracking.
Yet another purple/rosy F3 tomato, this one with tiny tip at the blossom end. The green shoulders turned to dirty yellowish-brown when fully ripe (which I found strange but also appealing). Not sure if that is genetic or something from the environment.
And finally my favorite tomato from this family, a longer purple F3. Very strange form for this small tomato, a stretched plum, a tube or something. The color is intensive, very dark red inside, most likely has the green flesh gene. And this one tasted good as well. The plant architecture may not be compact enough, however, this one was used already as a parent in another cross so at least the genes are about to go forward.
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BR,
Pippin
Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Banana Cream family
Finally, the last family in the bunch, BC, a creation of Tom Wagner, also known as the “Cream Sausage”. It is a very nice yellow tomato with clear skin. A compact determinate plant with a typical “wispy leaves” growth habit. If compared to Green Sausage, BC was growing taller and more upwards for me. I liked the flavor of BC as it is on the mild and sweeter side of the spectrum. Good high yield, and firm, paste type tomatoes, some growing quite large. The only real dislike was the BER that was difficult to avoid. In below picture you can see both BC and GrS in my farmers market desk some years back (note that the light is little strange as the photo was taken very early in the morning when the sun was still very low).
So, I crossed BC with my compact, pink little cherry. The F1 plants were still quite large and spreading plants, maybe intermediate between the parents but still quite large. As expected, they beared good tasting pink tomatoes.
The F2 generation was grown during 2021, with the same mass selection method than many of the other families. This family is little boring to report as there were only two tomato colors to expect, i.e. if you cross a pink and white tomato, you can only get pinks or whites out from such cross. I planted some 120 seeds and selected for the compact plant architecture. Only three plants yielded white tomatoes on compact enough plants. These three plants were surprisingly compact, and actually growing next to each other in the row (which is very strange as what are the odds of picking three seeds with white compact tomatoes randomly). It will be interesting to see if this compact plant size remains in the forthcoming generation. I wanted to save seeds also from the pink tomatoes but unfortunately none of the pinks seemed satisfactory to me. Below pictures are from these selected three compact white tomato plants.
The size of the tomatoes varied a bit among these three, some where smaller and others little larger. But all have this plum like, little elongated form. Cannot really remember which one was photographed in the below picture but I think it is a beauty. I am very happy with this one, hopefully I can stabilize this fruit form more on the cherry category size. Saladette would be just fine too as it is so pretty.
This was the final posting on the “Pippin’s family photos 2021” series, hope you enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed growing it.
Finally, the last family in the bunch, BC, a creation of Tom Wagner, also known as the “Cream Sausage”. It is a very nice yellow tomato with clear skin. A compact determinate plant with a typical “wispy leaves” growth habit. If compared to Green Sausage, BC was growing taller and more upwards for me. I liked the flavor of BC as it is on the mild and sweeter side of the spectrum. Good high yield, and firm, paste type tomatoes, some growing quite large. The only real dislike was the BER that was difficult to avoid. In below picture you can see both BC and GrS in my farmers market desk some years back (note that the light is little strange as the photo was taken very early in the morning when the sun was still very low).
So, I crossed BC with my compact, pink little cherry. The F1 plants were still quite large and spreading plants, maybe intermediate between the parents but still quite large. As expected, they beared good tasting pink tomatoes.
The F2 generation was grown during 2021, with the same mass selection method than many of the other families. This family is little boring to report as there were only two tomato colors to expect, i.e. if you cross a pink and white tomato, you can only get pinks or whites out from such cross. I planted some 120 seeds and selected for the compact plant architecture. Only three plants yielded white tomatoes on compact enough plants. These three plants were surprisingly compact, and actually growing next to each other in the row (which is very strange as what are the odds of picking three seeds with white compact tomatoes randomly). It will be interesting to see if this compact plant size remains in the forthcoming generation. I wanted to save seeds also from the pink tomatoes but unfortunately none of the pinks seemed satisfactory to me. Below pictures are from these selected three compact white tomato plants.
The size of the tomatoes varied a bit among these three, some where smaller and others little larger. But all have this plum like, little elongated form. Cannot really remember which one was photographed in the below picture but I think it is a beauty. I am very happy with this one, hopefully I can stabilize this fruit form more on the cherry category size. Saladette would be just fine too as it is so pretty.
This was the final posting on the “Pippin’s family photos 2021” series, hope you enjoyed reading it as much as I enjoyed growing it.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
BR,
Pippin
Pippin
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bower
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Very pretty colors and shapes!
You really have created an impressive family of tomatoes with the same growth habit. I hope the habit is mostly stable and not too many get crossed off the list for bad habits
in the coming generations. And enjoy the freedom to select just for taste and other beauty traits.
I'm looking forward to see how they go in 2022.
You really have created an impressive family of tomatoes with the same growth habit. I hope the habit is mostly stable and not too many get crossed off the list for bad habits
in the coming generations. And enjoy the freedom to select just for taste and other beauty traits.I'm looking forward to see how they go in 2022.
AgCan Zone 5a/USDA zone 4
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
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Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Yeah, season 2022 will be interesting as some of these will be tested in the polytunnel. I am sure that there will be a lot of variation on how compact they really are as the growing habit seem to be so very complex phenomenon. And then there are all these other aspects like flavor and firmness that have not been in the focus yet.
I am still surprised that I needed to screen some 120 plants to get only one or two really promising individuals. Growing that many plants in a very small space was a good experience but how to identify those most promising lines remains a challenge.
If the plant architecture was controlled by multiple recessive genes (which may be an oversimplification of the situation here), then I may have as many as three recessives growing habit related genes to fix? I am thinking of getting two ”fixed” phenotypes in average out of 120, i.e. a calculation like 2:8, 8:32, 32:128 (cf. 1:4, 4:16, 16:64).
I am still surprised that I needed to screen some 120 plants to get only one or two really promising individuals. Growing that many plants in a very small space was a good experience but how to identify those most promising lines remains a challenge.
If the plant architecture was controlled by multiple recessive genes (which may be an oversimplification of the situation here), then I may have as many as three recessives growing habit related genes to fix? I am thinking of getting two ”fixed” phenotypes in average out of 120, i.e. a calculation like 2:8, 8:32, 32:128 (cf. 1:4, 4:16, 16:64).
BR,
Pippin
Pippin
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
I think you're right, that two out of 120 is approximately right for three recessive genes. (1/64 for 2/128).
I do believe the majority or perhaps all of the dwarfing gene possibilities are recessive. Things like your 'triple crown' cluster structure might have dominance or QTL type segregation involved, IDK. I have seen unusual cluster structures appear in F3, which were afterwards retained with little variation, but I believe that was a case of epistasis removed in the breeding process.
With regards the internode length which is minimized by dwarfing genes, there is arguably a degree of plasticity always present, which allows the plant to respond to environmental cues within the constraints of genetics. You seem to have quite a uniform environment laid out for them in the high tunnel, so it may not be as much a factor as it has been for me, with various shading factors including simple overcrowding of the space.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
I do believe the majority or perhaps all of the dwarfing gene possibilities are recessive. Things like your 'triple crown' cluster structure might have dominance or QTL type segregation involved, IDK. I have seen unusual cluster structures appear in F3, which were afterwards retained with little variation, but I believe that was a case of epistasis removed in the breeding process.
With regards the internode length which is minimized by dwarfing genes, there is arguably a degree of plasticity always present, which allows the plant to respond to environmental cues within the constraints of genetics. You seem to have quite a uniform environment laid out for them in the high tunnel, so it may not be as much a factor as it has been for me, with various shading factors including simple overcrowding of the space.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
AgCan Zone 5a/USDA zone 4
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
temperate marine climate
yearly precip 61 inches/1550 mm
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Frosti
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Very fun thread to read, @Pippin!
I can totally sympathize with the agony of having to remove the "unwanted" tomato plants ... in 2022 I didn't have to do it since I was mostly growing F1 plants and in 2021 I somehow managed to give away most of the unwanted F2 plants. But I fear in 2023 there will be no way to avoid killing a lot of unwanted plants.
I expect to have about 100 seedlings with undesirable traits ... 30 of which will have S. Habrochaites flavor, so I can't give them away (otherwise the recipient will never again take an unwanted plant off my hands )
I can totally sympathize with the agony of having to remove the "unwanted" tomato plants ... in 2022 I didn't have to do it since I was mostly growing F1 plants and in 2021 I somehow managed to give away most of the unwanted F2 plants. But I fear in 2023 there will be no way to avoid killing a lot of unwanted plants.
I expect to have about 100 seedlings with undesirable traits ... 30 of which will have S. Habrochaites flavor, so I can't give them away (otherwise the recipient will never again take an unwanted plant off my hands
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Re: Pippin's family photos 2021
Glad to hear that you enjoyed this thread!
I have no problems in thinning carrots or throwing away extra eggplants or peppers or even tomatoes but when it comes to my own tomato breeding lines, I get anxious when making that final decision of destroying a speciment before it has shown it’s potential. Selection has been very difficult art to learn, even when I know what I am looking for. Sometimes I even feel that I am selectively blind to some of the phenotypes, e.g. I have saved seeds from jointless plants even when I want to get rid of the jointless or forget to pay attention if the fruits were uniform or had green shoulders or had clear skin when those would be important factors to know later.
Other times it is like knowing that there is something special or disturbing in that plant but I am not able to verbalize what it is. I am getting better all the time but it has surprised me how difficult it is. I have saved way too many seeds and grown way too many plants because I have been worried of loosing something valuable. My instinct of which individuals are the real keepers has not been 100% accurate so having some backups is of course good but there is no need to overdo it neither. The fact is that the number of crosses and breeding lines tends to grow exponentially and at some point one just needs to make difficult decisions or the whole project becomes impossible.
With some breeding lines I am now back to one or two promising individuals that will go towards to stabilisation. It is relaxing to get to this point even if it means that not all breeding goals were met. There is always the option to start a new breeding line with the improvements in mind.
I have no problems in thinning carrots or throwing away extra eggplants or peppers or even tomatoes but when it comes to my own tomato breeding lines, I get anxious when making that final decision of destroying a speciment before it has shown it’s potential. Selection has been very difficult art to learn, even when I know what I am looking for. Sometimes I even feel that I am selectively blind to some of the phenotypes, e.g. I have saved seeds from jointless plants even when I want to get rid of the jointless or forget to pay attention if the fruits were uniform or had green shoulders or had clear skin when those would be important factors to know later.
Other times it is like knowing that there is something special or disturbing in that plant but I am not able to verbalize what it is. I am getting better all the time but it has surprised me how difficult it is. I have saved way too many seeds and grown way too many plants because I have been worried of loosing something valuable.
My instinct of which individuals are the real keepers has not been 100% accurate so having some backups is of course good but there is no need to overdo it neither. The fact is that the number of crosses and breeding lines tends to grow exponentially and at some point one just needs to make difficult decisions or the whole project becomes impossible. With some breeding lines I am now back to one or two promising individuals that will go towards to stabilisation. It is relaxing to get to this point even if it means that not all breeding goals were met. There is always the option to start a new breeding line with the improvements in mind.
BR,
Pippin
Pippin