Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#21

Post: # 5248Unread post Labradors
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:57 am

Thanks Marsha and Elaine. Good link Elaine!

I wish I could buy the 50 lb bags of Nature's Safe and take them north, but the best I could do would probably be Tomato Tone for an organic granular. I had good luck last year adding some (store bought) dehydrated chicken manure to my container plants halfway through the season, but I know they are not the same as the Earthbox concept.

I don't see how I can re-use the mix because there is no way to solarize it. Deep freeze it maybe {LOL}. I will buy new.

Linda

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#22

Post: # 5290Unread post Barb_FL
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:11 pm

Call me a sucker, but I bought a bunch of the replant kits from EB. And to make things worse, it was the 7-7-7 kit. I've opened a lot of them for the shower caps; plus they did give 2 of them.

I never heard of Nature's Safe or Nature's Source. Where do you buy it? Nature's Source for down the tube sounds promising. I see Amazon sells it, but I try not to buy anything liquid there because in the past the seals were broken so I assume some was taken out.

I thought the Texas Tomato Food was great for down the tube. Ginny (another Florida tomato grower) use to do it, 3 days on, 2-3 off, repeat and she always had a lot of tomatoes.

I tried lots of stuff besides TTF, Flora Nova Grow, the Masterblend Formula, but it is such a drag having to pour it into the tube of each EB. I tried the sample of Mega Crop and ended up buying the large bag. I just scoop it down the tube so it is even easier than any liquid.

Crab Shells - I could save a bunch of $ just buying the 50 lb bag, but storing it might be a problem. I

Also, what is the name of the plastic roll to make the shower caps?

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#23

Post: # 5329Unread post MsCowpea
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:27 pm

Barb, we are kindred spirits. I have many bottles/bags of this and that fertilizer or additive. If they discovered an ancient mineral in Mongolia only accessible via yak transport that was a boost for tomatoes I would be in line to order it. I am a sucker for hype and enjoy the experimentation.
If there are 4 containers I have got to try 4 different things. But my idol , author Charles Wilber, used organic compost in one whiskey barrel and harvested 111 pounds of tomatoes from one plant so I also like the simplicity of his method. And I really enjoy making compost and adding special ingredients.
The mix I am trying for the first time is Metro Mix 830. It is very similar to Fafard 3B. They both have pine bark component.
But I also bought a few bags of MM 865 which is about 70% bark.
You could always use your 7-7-7 in comparison tests. Or maybe mix with organic to get a combo fertilizer. đŸ€” I might
Try Texas Tomato Food down the tube as a supplement in some of the inorganic boxes. Still need an organic supplement.
I saw Marsha’s setup today. Absolutely incredible -FANTASTIC yield with her supplemental input. They looked beautiful too. Truly amazing.
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#24

Post: # 5330Unread post Ginger2778
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:41 pm

Labradors wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:57 am Thanks Marsha and Elaine. Good link Elaine!

I wish I could buy the 50 lb bags of Nature's Safe and take them north, but the best I could do would probably be Tomato Tone for an organic granular. I had good luck last year adding some (store bought) dehydrated chicken manure to my container plants halfway through the season, but I know they are not the same as the Earthbox concept.

I don't see how I can re-use the mix because there is no way to solarize it. Deep freeze it maybe {LOL}. I will buy new.

Linda
I know. I think solarizing might just be a southern Florida thing, everyone else uses their stuff during the summer.
- Marsha

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#25

Post: # 5344Unread post Ginger2778
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:12 pm

Barb_FL wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:11 pm Call me a sucker, but I bought a bunch of the replant kits from EB. And to make things worse, it was the 7-7-7 kit. I've opened a lot of them for the shower caps; plus they did give 2 of them.

I never heard of Nature's Safe or Nature's Source. Where do you buy it? Nature's Source for down the tube sounds promising. I see Amazon sells it, but I try not to buy anything liquid there because in the past the seals were broken so I assume some was taken out.

I thought the Texas Tomato Food was great for down the tube. Ginny (another Florida tomato grower) use to do it, 3 days on, 2-3 off, repeat and she always had a lot of tomatoes.

I tried lots of stuff besides TTF, Flora Nova Grow, the Masterblend Formula, but it is such a drag having to pour it into the tube of each EB. I tried the sample of Mega Crop and ended up buying the large bag. I just scoop it down the tube so it is even easier than any liquid.

Crab Shells - I could save a bunch of $ just buying the 50 lb bag, but storing it might be a problem. I

Also, what is the name of the plastic roll to make the shower caps?
Barb, the man in the video called it plastic row cover. I think I'm going to buy a roll of the 4 foot wide, but in white only. I don't need the black side, never use it.
I gave been using the Jack's Classic Tomato FeED but I think at too weak a strength. I'm starting to get nutrient deficiencies. I believe it's an iron deficiency, very pale small new leaves, might be because the pH is too low(acid) because I haven't been using "the snack". I put a teaspoon of the Ca(NO3)2 down each tube today, along with a 1/2 teaspoon of Epsom salt , to try to bring the pH back up, the next time I water I will use the Jack's Classic Tomato FeED at full strength. I've been giving the Jack's to my peppers and eggplants, and they look,pretty good.
- Marsha

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#26

Post: # 5351Unread post Ginger2778
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:35 pm

I just took a look at Nature Safe and Nature's Source. To me, for my personal use, both have too high of a nitrogen #. That's good for the vegetative growth stage, but when they get into blossoming, I want root support and blossom support along with blossom production. The N produces all that lovely healthy growth, but too much greenery, so tall lush green plants with not enough fruit. So lower N, medium P, higher K is most deal for tomatoes, peppers, and eggplants.
- Marsha

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#27

Post: # 5565Unread post Barb_FL
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:49 pm

Marsha - From the pictures, I thought your fruit set looked much more productive than in prior years. I didn't think Calcium Nitrate changed the PH though.

When I've done the Masterblend formula, at first I was buying LOTs of bags of PH Up. Then by chance, I mixed it, left it in the sun for a few hours, and when I came back to test the PH, it had adjusted itself. I tested it several more times, letting the sun do the job and never used Ph UP again. For the few plants I hydro feed now, I continue to do that.

----
Kind of related to what Elaine was writing about earlier, over the summer I met a guy who experimented with EB: He used FoxFarm Happy Frog potting mix, and at first used MaxiGrow down the tube, then later in the cycle add Organics to potting mix in the box. He said the Maxigrow

would make the plants take off and later when the organic potting mix like Happy Frog Tomato, would make it taste better.

I ended up buying 5 bags of Happy Frog Potting mix but after so many years of promix, I didn't think it was wick near as well. I have everything to do it. I also bought the Texas Tomato Foods granular fertilizer since the first time I used it, it was the best granular I ever used.

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#28

Post: # 5572Unread post Barb_FL
Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:13 pm

Elaine - I checked and Charles Wilber book is in our county library system, so I will get it.

I wonder how many pounds per plant AKMark got - he used the hydro-garden (like Masterblend) formula with 2 plants per 4 gallon bag. He use to post on TV with pictures and it was amazing.

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#29

Post: # 5600Unread post Barb_FL
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:13 am

I ended up watching part of a youtube video of Charles Wilber tomato and I want to do experiments with his method.
I may do a limted experiment this year and not Better Boy tomato due to not enough time as I'm leaving for 10 days in early May.

But I got really enthused last night thinking of all the variations I can try with it. I have a lot of wind a lot of the time and am already outgrowing the cages with the extensions.

I'm going to the hydro store today - the super soil owner will be there.

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#30

Post: # 5646Unread post MsCowpea
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:53 pm

I wonder how many pounds per plant AKMark got
A zillion? Unbelievable grower and so helpful to others. Lady on Dave's Garden named cricket also used synthetics in greenhouse and hers were phenomenal as well.

But it is also easy to mess up with hydroponic fertilizer and create all sorts of problems with nutrients locking themselves out if you don't know what you are doing. Too much fertilizer is as bad as too little. Plus you have got to monitor water, etc.

I took a 2 day workshop on greenhouse production but I would need way more training before I could do it. It is not for small experiments as you need specialized equipment.

I like to see greenhouses and pictures but it is not my thing but you never know that you can't use something that you learn.
Class tour-business w/ acres of greenshouses. The boxes held bumblebees.
Greenhouse with boxes of Bees.jpg
This
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#31

Post: # 5675Unread post MsCowpea
Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:08 pm

Re: using 8-3-5 or 8-5-5 (possibly too high in nitrogen?)
I have used Tomato Tone a lot and other lower nitrogen organics like Dr Earth in earthboxes as well. The nature safe didn’t seem to make them anymore vegetative than TTone. Plus you can see in the pics that the organic pretty much look the same as the synthetic . Synthetic plant was a bit bigger.

Most of the boxes I have growing now are 1 cup TT, one cup Nature safe, and one cup Dr Earth. (4-6-3) as I wanted to use stuff up. I am testing about 3 other types organic fertilizer looking for one that lasts longer. I also have a couple totally synthetic.

Those who supplement with the snack (calcium nitrate) are getting way more nitrogen than me. ( unfortunately, nothing in way of potassium which is important for flavor). Those boxes get dosed weekly, mine get nothing. Nothing for the whole season. Organic fertilizer since it needs to be broken down in form plants can use doesn’t kickass 😆 like the synthetics (uptake immediately) but organics will catch up eventually. But the yield will be less —if you want to increase yield, supplementation sounds like a good idea. Marsha, with your supplement you must be pumping out the tomatoes a long time.

But if the organic fertilizer doesn’t last (the article mentions 45 days) and the
earthbox is a closed system and you need more potassium than nitrogen as time goes on , what to use to supplement if you want to stick to organics? Plus I should have used something a while back as it isn’t effective immediately. And I don’t want to over fertilize as that impacts flavor negatively as well. This season I will just use something I have. And Marsha, on the comparison non-organic boxes that I did supplement with that hydroponic fertilizer you tried and didnt care for I will start using Texas Tomato food instead.
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#32

Post: # 5691Unread post Barb_FL
Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:59 pm

Elaine - What about using soluble Kelp for the added K?

I went to the hydro store today and the vendor from Detroit Nutrients was there giving a class. It is living soil not super soil. Now I can see why my 2 time experiment failed in the EB. The first time, I just used his soil, and the 2nd year with new soil I fed it teas routinely and then what that wasn't working (probably between the 45-60 day mark), I was giving it Neptune's Harvest Tomato Food from the top. I think the closed environment/constant moisture didn't work well with all the living microbes.

What do you think of giving Fish Based liquids (like Neptune's Harvest Tomato or their fish and seaweed fertilizer down the tube? I'm afraid of it stinking in the reservoir.

He had a recipe for making a super tea and again I'm pitiful, but I had every ingredient except one.

I bought the living soil and a big bag of worm castings, plus the one ingredient to make the super teas. I'm going to go with this for my limited Charlie Weber experiment.

----
I'm experimenting with the coir bags this season. I have 4 going and I feed them the masterblend formula; sometimes I will sub Mega Crop. All were doing great; lots of fruit set. 2 I cut the coir bags down to fit in an EB (for caging - which was another mistake and waste of an EB), One of them which houses 2 Polish plants, recently started drooping in the afternoon when it is really sunny. I suspect nutrient lockout ; probably doesn't help as they have a smaller amount of coir although the other one in an EB is fine. The 2 Polish plants are also the only ones with some suspect leaves. That said, my Polish plant in the EB has some suspect leaves as well. The other 2 in a Root Pouch, are fine. Polish was my best tasting tomato last season; that is why I have so many plants.

Another experiment - I did something similar last year is growing in a rockwool slab. I actually like this better as it is easy to see how much liquid is available. The slab fits into a grow tray with little spigots at the end, so when it rains and water accumulates in the tray it is easy to empty. I usually only feed when the tray gets dry.

---
I think you will really like TTF down the tube. If you are looking for longer lasting dry ingredients, their dry formula is the best I've tried. (Espoma, Happy Frog, Sustain, etc).

However, if you want to try one more thing, you can get a sample (decent amount) of this for just the cost of shipping.
https://greenleafnutrients.com/product/mega-crop/
I'm a fan; super easy especially down the EB. I'm on my 2nd large bag

---
That greenhouse picture is fabulous.

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#33

Post: # 5706Unread post PlainJane
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:14 am

Am following this to get ideas for tuning my container feeding schedule. I intend to stick with grow bags and homemade 5-1-1 mix for this season but I think I can improve both production and flavor. Keep the experiments coming!

- Joyce
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#34

Post: # 5712Unread post SQWIB
Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:43 am

PlainJane wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:14 am Am following this to get ideas for tuning my container feeding schedule. I intend to stick with grow bags and homemade 5-1-1 mix for this season but I think I can improve both production and flavor. Keep the experiments coming!

- Joyce
Care to share your feeding routine and what you use?
I have been using the 5-1-1 mix for my potted fruit trees, just looking for feeding input.

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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#35

Post: # 5719Unread post PlainJane
Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:12 am

SQWIB wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:43 am
PlainJane wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:14 am Am following this to get ideas for tuning my container feeding schedule. I intend to stick with grow bags and homemade 5-1-1 mix for this season but I think I can improve both production and flavor. Keep the experiments coming!

- Joyce
Care to share your feeding routine and what you use?
I have been using the 5-1-1 mix for my potted fruit trees, just looking for feeding input.
I use TTF products almost exclusively. I mix about 2 cups of the dry granulated formula for each 30 gal bag at the start of the growing season, then segue to liquid Veggie, then to liquid Tomato formation. I do the liquid feeds about once a week.
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#36

Post: # 5742Unread post MsCowpea
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:53 am

He had a recipe for making a super tea and again I'm pitiful, but I had every ingredient except one.
Barb, that is too funny. We are cousins. It was late here, I read about soaking old seeds in bat guano.
Not only do I have bat guano but I have several different types.

I do wonder why I like the unusual inputs when I know that Charles Wilber grew inground plants that produced 342 pounds per plant and verified by Guinness Book of Records 1987. Also cherry tomatoes 27 feet tall. Essentially with homemade compost. He also grew one tomato plant and got over 100 pounds of fruit in a large container .

Compost is still my favorite component but the unusual ‘speaks’ to me.

I have had good success with Purdue’s MicroStart 60 in the past (with open containers,not EB) but can’t get it anymore. Supposedly BLack Hen is the same, it is cheap and available at a local nursery. I like it a lot.
But I read somewhere on line that chicken manure can make plants ‘bullish’
(which hydroponic growers try to avoid) . I do see that as some stems can look really thick.

But back to these earthboxes, I think kelp could be an ingredient. I just don’t know about putting organic stuff down the tube either, for the reasons you mentioned. Since I didn’t start earlier with an organic supplement maybe I should use TTF in the majority???

Right now , I have EBs with Texas Tomato Food organic BioActive Fertilizer
(5-4-4), 2 with Microlife (8-4-6) which is too expensive, some with Nature Safe 8-5-5 or 8-3-5 (can’t remember) and a mix of 3 different organic fertilizers to use them up. Comparison Synthetic boxes have TR plus something else with it , and Miracle Grow 9-4-12, another with 12-16-10.

Of course, it would be great to grow all 25 EB with the same plant as I did in my mini experiment but I will just judge the overall success or failure with each plant and it’s particularly input.
Elaine
Last edited by MsCowpea on Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#37

Post: # 5747Unread post MsCowpea
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:01 am

Joyce! Thanks for information on TTF. I bought some a few years ago but didn’t pay any attention to the results, too much going on outside of the garden. I did find their BioActive dry in my stash but I am afraid that the microbe thingies in it might be dead from long storage. I used it anyway in a box. Elaine
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#38

Post: # 5752Unread post MsCowpea
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:37 am

Barb, in that greenhouse pic they were growing in those very flat bags of coir. I was surprised. I have had no luck whatsoever with the bricks you inflate with water and I even rinsed in case they had salt like the early days of introduction.
With coir slabs you just need to get the nutrients down with fertigation or some other means. And of course they prune the heck out of them in greenhouses.
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#39

Post: # 9437Unread post MsCowpea
Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:04 pm

Here’s an Earthbox organic vs synthetic box. (Feb. 2020) taste challenge. I. already did a blind taste test and preferred the organic. Juliet tomato.

DH doesn’t like to taste raw tomatoes. Nor does he have discerning taste. I have a feeling that if he tasted a tomato grown with nuclear waste he would not be able to tell the difference from any other tomato other than it was glowing. :?

We were just in the garden —I picked an organic Juliet and a comparable red colored all synthetic Juliet from the EBs. After a bit of cajoling, I gave him the first bite.
“It’s dry.” he immediately says . I said I don’t care if it is dry, savor the taste so you can compare to the next one. Next bite, chewing, thinking, “probably the second one.” Ahh, success, a decision. I look at the code and the second one was from organic EarthBox. I then taste both and it is clear the synthetic Juliet is not as good. The organic Juliet is not an excellent tasting variety like a Black Cherry but the organic was sweeter and tasted better. Think it would be better dehydrated as well. (I tested the brix # on both and there was not much difference, though organic was just a nudge higher.).

All those years of being told that it doesn’t make any difference what fertilizers you use as a plant doesn’t know where the nutrients come
from—

In a closed system , soilless mix container like EarthBox the plants do know something - they are not as dumb as you think.

(Now these results just apply to these particular inputs, there are many type of conventional fertilizers.)

Nor am I extrapolating this to inground growing. People who use cover crops and compost and THEN add synthetic fertilizer have a lot more going on that would impact growth and flavor.

(Plus this is not a comment on using both synthetic and organic inputs in one box. If you don’t care about being all organic, A combination approach may possibly bring the best of both worlds but that is another thread altogether.)
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Re: Organic Vs Synthetic Fert. in EarthBoxes

#40

Post: # 9440Unread post MsCowpea
Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:26 pm

In this same vein, I once grew potatoes in smart pot. One had synthetic time-released fertilizer , the other organic.
The synthetic bag got me 5 whole pounds of potatoes!! The organic bag 2 and half pounds. Big difference.

I did a blind taste test. I microwaved some of each. The synthetic potatoes were AWFUL. I mean almost inedible. You’d have to kill it with butter and salt to want to eat them.
I wish I could say that the organic was delicious, best potatoes I ever had. but I can’t. They were noticeably better though.

Obviously I would need to improve the yield on the organic potatoes as this is a frequent criticism of organic inputs. I think I could do that—I think compost would have helped in many ways.
And something would have to be done about the time released method if that is what I was using. Perhaps I am judging it unfairly on one measly experiment but I would be reluctant to use Time released fertilizer as my only source of fertilizer ever again. (It was an osmocote/dynamite type)

The Juliet experiment above used a synthetic fertilizer 9-4-12 that had a time release component —said it would last 3 months which I thought would be great and I supplemented with hydroponic fertilizer (1tsp) 3 times and the remaining weeks I used Texas Tomato Food weekly(1/4 c). The plant does look fantastic, robust , and the Juliets are even bigger.
Last edited by MsCowpea on Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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