karstopography wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:21 am … One thing I had been doing recently was removing a lot of leaves. I had already pruned away lower leaves, but I had been going up the plant more getting rid of older, worn out looking leaves and any that were sort of buried in the canopy and seemed sort of redundant.

I don’t know if that action resulted in a lot of new growth, but the plants that I did some of the most thorough pruning have had a big burst of new growth. …

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the reason for the growth. That's what I often do when I have a plant that has been stunted by the weather or growing conditions, especially if it has upside-down leaves with thick veins (and isn't supposed to be wispy); I remove some leaves (ideally the oldest ones first), and then it starts growing again, instead of dying or just not growing.

How salty is your soil? Although sodium isn't exactly desirable to have in much quantity in soil, it can trick plants into acting as if they have more water than they actually do—but it makes them more vulnerable to overwatering and root rot. It seems to help deter pests and foliar fungal disease, though. I don't suggest adding any; I'm just curious. I'd be careful with kelp, as it seems kind of salty. Same for blood meal, for those who use that.

Tomatoes can handle salt better than some plants, though. Some people use sea minerals on tomatoes (I've done that before, on a few tomatoes and several watermelons). It's basically sea salt, without other minerals taken out; it should have a similar mineral composition as blood meal, sans the NPK. One caution there is if you're planning to plant particularly salt-sensitive plants another year in the same soil. It might ruin it for them.

[mention]stone[/mention] My native soil is strange, my garden situation is strange. So one reason I went to raised beds was tree roots. One side of my garden is a large water oak, the other side, a massive live oak. The garden site as a whole is within the drip line of both trees. Because of sun angles, the garden can get enough sun and yet still be within the drip line of a tree. Roots from the water oak intruded into the one bed that isn’t a raised bed per se. Roots from the live oak intrude from the opposite direction. I hack the roots out and they will reappear in a season or two, this is true for the water oak. Then the native soil is complex. The lake has an obvious silt and very fine sand composition associated with it. Heavy Clay, both a dark type and a red component is also part of the mix, actually the majority of the mix. I also know the previous owners of the house had a major house fire 60 something years ago and I suspect some of the debris from that event were piled right where the garden is. Charcoal is evident in digging the soil and occasionally glass, pottery shards, a silver plate butter knife, agate marbles, and 1950s era toys sometimes are found digging in the soil.

Fine, move the garden. But wait, there are giant mature oaks and pines everywhere. As far as available light and available water, this place the garden is has the best available of both.

Water is not normally so scarce. Usually, the normally abundant rain keeps everything moist. This is an atypical year. All the unimproved, un-amended soil surrounding the garden is bone dry. So adding water is less effective than typical as the ground only robs away more of the moisture. Anyway, the lake has a mechanism to remain full no matter the rainfall so it will not ever dry up or even be allowed to drop below a certain level. That water costs me only what it is to run my pump, which is minimal.

I’m trying to work with the cards I’ve been dealt.

[mention]karstopography[/mention]
Does your soil dry very quickly, even deeper down? Is that what you're saying?

https://legacy.lib.utexas.edu/maps/texa ... p-2008.pdf
I’m in 53. High shrink/swell type. But with amendments, organic matter, compost, here and there a little bagged garden and potting soil, the one garden not raised texture is altered from the base native soil and will hold water for a time.

So if I were to dig a hole now just out in the yard away from where I have added water, The soil would be borderline rock hard, clay. I would look a little deceiving with a very thin layer of crumbly and easily worked silt on top in many spots. Below that is the clay, now very dry and very hard. Hard enough to bend the tines on my expensive Hoss garden fork. I might hit a red hard clay or a black hard clay. Sunny spots in the yard now have drying out and desiccated San Augustine grass because there’s no moisture. Eventually, I’d hit a water table. Crawfish know this and make crawfish chimneys digging down until they hit water and they live in the low spots where the water is close to the surface. This water level now is too deep, with the dry conditions, to be available for all but the deepest rooted native plants.

Our soil in places shrinks and swells so much it busts up reinforced concrete foundations. Most all concrete slab houses, 90 percent are those, basements are virtually non existent, the rest are pier and beam, past a certain age have had their foundation’s leveled, an expensive, labor intensive, procedure. This is all because in wet periods the soil expands and in dry periods the soil shrinks. These swings fracture sheet rock, crack 6” and more of rebar reinforced concrete, tilt floors out of level.

Right now, in the dry shrink period, I couldn’t possibly add enough water with a garden hose to have any real and lasting effect on a zone. The ground, the sponge it is, soaks it all away. Most trees and native shrubs here have deep tap roots that can tap into the moisture down deep or some other mechanism to conserve or store water, but the garden vegetables as a rule have no such provision.

Whoa. It sounds like that clay might be caliche, too.

I'd never heard of swelling and shrinking soil like that.

Shule wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:47 am Whoa. It sounds like that clay might be caliche, too.

I'd never heard of swelling and shrinking soil like that.

No not caliche just Brazos river bottom land.
Geolicaly speaking the river is on its last stages.
Thus the reason for the many house shoe lakes where the river used to flow.

https://thepostnewspaper.net/2015/08/11 ... undations/

A little more on this soil.

The mound builders spread a thick layer of sand over the clay before they built monks mounting in Illinois.
This kept the clay moist.

karstopography wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:26 am https://thepostnewspaper.net/2015/08/11 ... undations/

A little more on this soil.

I'm so jealous!
That gumbo clay is the good stuff!

While it is very difficult to work... very thin window of time for workability... either it cakes onto the tools and builds up on your footwear... 20 lbs on each boot... or... it gets hard as concrete...

Time it just right, though... great stuff!

Makes stuff grow like mad!

While no amount of manure/compost ever creates a friable loose soil... it's still some of the best stuff going!

Would love to trade places with you for a while... I didn't want to be in the sand... begged the real estate agents to show me some clay... but they weren't about to offer me the good stuff.

sugar sand isn't all bad... everything is sweeter... if you can get anything to grow...

So I returned from a period away from the garden to a wet and messed up scene. Rain and wind, not in the forecast, came along and toppled a few plants and the ground is certainly more than moist. But, the real devastation was caused by squirrels. They removed and ate all my remaining mortgage lifters, big ones, just about to turn. All the Cherokee purples, several nearly grown ones had remained, all gone. Super fantastic, my last Old German, my three remaining hillbillies, all partially or fully consumed. A couple of pound plus munched on tomatoes from the Hillbilly plant remained underneath the plant. The big old German was still there missing most of its top. I guess those were too big to cart away by the bushy tailed rats.

The squirrels left the Amish Paste alone. Need to remember to plant more of these if they aren’t attractive to squirrels. They didn’t quiet destroy all the Pineapple tomatoes. One green one remains and a few breakers were untouched. Three or four top guns were passed over. Most of the smaller green Carmello remain. Maybe one or two celebrities survived. One big runner with several tomatoes on the Carmello broken in two by the wind. Squirrels mostly left the cherry and grape tomatoes alone. Lemon boy was untouched. So was San Marzano. I picked 10 in various shades of green, orange and red and not one had a bite mark. But Roma was almost stripped bare.

My little net wrapping of clusters was useless. Completely ineffective against the rodent raiders. I Don’t understand how the squirrels flipped a switch and suddenly started in on the tomatoes with a vengeance. Some natural food must have gone away. I really thought my nets were at least partially working, but I deceived myself. I even did the lead cure on a couple just prior to my absence, but that didn’t slow them down one iota.

I can see some tomato foliage stripped bare from horn worms. One black beauty eggplant was laying over. Several santa Fe grande peppers eaten, not sure who or what did those in. Sunflowers, ones with blooms, toppled. 5 sweet corn plants remained, all but one laid over. Don’t know if my being handy would have done anything against the wind, but I sure would have waged a war on the squirrels.

It’s all okay. Interesting though how much destruction can occur in a few days in a garden without a gardener nearby checking and performing a remedy on things.

In spite of the destruction, I still have some nice tomatoes to enjoy. I gave my folks some and kept these in the photo. My parents came by to check on the garden in my absence. I told them to pick anything they wished, especially the cucumbers as they would be ready. “We didn’t see any cucumbers”. I picked two too big ones at 12” ones this morning and another of the smooth type that was fully grown, with several more still out there.

I’ll probably rip out the bulk of the tomato plants in the next few days. Maybe leave in the Carmello and grape and cherry types. Most of the plants look healthy, but I don’t really expect any fruit setting with the forecast being hot and humid for the next, idk, 3 months.

Wow—I'm quite sorry to hear that.

Did the squirrels eat the plants, too, or just the fruit? I didn't know they ate tomato plants, if they did.

Fruit. We do have a huge crop of squirrels this year.

I sent my squirrels south for summer vacation.

Sorry to hear that. So frustrating.

This thread inspired me to take a closer look at my watering.

I am in Philadelphia and we do get a good bit of rain, but sometimes it all comes at once.

I shut off my Drip Irrigation lines to my Hugelkultur beds and one raised bed on the hill. I still have raised beds, pots, air pots and a few other things on the drip irrigation that cycles every other day.
Al the beds are heavily amended native clay soil with Vermiculite, Compost, Perlite, Bio-char, coffee grounds and Peat moss. I practice no till, chop and drop, in-situ composting and cover cropping. Anything trimmed gets tossed right on top of the beds, trimmings from vegetables like pepper, tomato, eggplant, cabbages, fruit scraps are sometimes placed on top as a mulch. I also on occasion will toss in toilet paper rolls, crumbled paper, and other paper products, I usually toss these in the corners for the worms. Heavy sticks I shove directly into the soil to decompose. Yard trimming are sometimes used as a mulch as well
This is the 4th and 5th season for some of the Hugelkultur beds.

I have been using grass clippings as a mulch around some of the plants (immediately at the base) and using crimson clover as a living mulch.
It has rained once in the week since the water has been off (Saturday).
I have been periodically checking the soil and it has been moist right up to the top. I think the grass has been a better mulch for me than woodchips or the like.
I plan on leaving the water off on these beds as long as I can. I do however "spot water" stuff that I add as seedlings or seeds,
Here are a few pics.

Upper garden Raised bed, Non Hugelkultur


Hugelkultur beds on right


Hugelkultur Beds


I was more worried about this Hugelkultur bed (on the right) not getting enough water because most of the plants here are lettuces and herbs.

Dry-farmed tomatoes are supposed to be tastier. I don't water anything, even the lettuce & etc.

Got around in the garden more today. It really isn’t all that bad. Picked some french filet beans, butter beans, a few more tomatoes, a lot of peppers, cucumbers. French filet beans have been a huge hit and surprise, still producing nicely this late in the season.

My soil and beds are doing well in spite of the 3 plus inches of rain we’ve gotten overnight. Soil wet, but not too soggy. Still looks like I’m getting some tomatoes to set so I might leave them in for a while longer. Too wet to work the soil for anything else. Plants mostly look healthy even with all the water. Squirrels mostly have a cease fire. Killed a few Tomato horn worms. Felt good to be back in there doing the garden thing.

Killed 10 young squirrels in one day in your neck of the woods on oyster creek a few years ago with a single shot 28 gauge shotgun.
You know how thick the woods are in that creek can be.
Like a jungle.
It was and is my fist gun at 9 years old I have it to this very day and it looks better than the day my father gave it to me.
The things were mighty tasty too with biscuits and gravy to dip it in.
Fried taters on the side.

My wife is a city girl and generally doesn’t like any meat that isn’t wrapped in plastic on top, a diaper underneath and must come with a price tag. Lamb is too gamey. Goat cheese tastes like fur. Whitetail deer is all wrong. Ducks are gross. There won’t be any squirrel in our kitchen.