• Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:04 pm**

Thanks for the info Debbie. I guess I should try some more tetra-ciz varieties. I'll probably grow Olga's Round Yellow Chicken Egg next season

.

Linda

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:49 pm**

Bower wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:02 am Just a quick comment about cherry sized fruit - it is easy easy to recover cherry size from any cross with a cherry. Size wants to default to cherry. Larger size much harder to recover. So it would work well for that project to use a tangerine parent of any size, if the other parent is a cherry.
I would avoid using any Beta parent, because that would complicate your results unnecessarily (which orange is which?)

I've got an accidental cross between Kellogg's Beefsteak and a red cherry, this year. The F1 is red, but the F2s could potentially produce orange fruit. Kellogg's Beefsteak probably has some tetra-cis lycopene, since I believe Kellogg's Breakfast does (it might be the same variety with a typo for all I know; I did prefer the taste of the original Kellogg's Beefsteak to Kellogg's Breakfast, but it was in different growing conditions), but it's probably not particularly high in it like Moonglow and Olga's Round Yellow Chicken Egg are. Possible red cherry parents are Husky Cherry Red F2, Sugar Lump, and Texas Wild Cherry. I'm guessing it's Husky Cherry Red F2, since those can have firm fruits.

[mention]Daniel Ricks[/mention]
If you're interested in some of those Kellogg's Beefsteak cross F2 seeds, let me know. The fruits on the F1 are about 1" in diameter, and very firm. I need to reply to your other post, still.

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:32 pm**

Labradors wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:19 am Here's another thought. In discussions about high-lycopene varieties somewhere on Tomatoville, somebody mentioned that we nutso tomato-growers eat more than our fair share of tomatoes as it is, and do we really need to worry about high-lycopene? I'd rather eat tons of great-tasting tomatoes than varieties that don't taste so great. However, I don't mind trying a few in case there are any good ones out there .

BTW I grew Jaune Flammee (a french tomato, not mexican) once, and found it acidic .

Linda

[mention]Labradors[/mention] Linda, you’re probably right and it’s a good point. I would place my focus on tetra-cis lycopene in the more minor category of fine tuning, or “top-grading” our anti-oxidant intake (May move the health needle a bit), rather than a more major category of deciding whether to eat any vegetables in the first place (will definitely move the health needle a lot).

However, for myself (and I suspect, Debbie [mention]OhioGardener[/mention] ), I would rephrase the “worry[ing]” about lycopene into more like “having incredibly too much fun exploring the possibilities” of lycopene.

As long as I’m not somehow neglecting other more significant aspects of health or family stability through my gardeneering.

One of the many things I’ve enjoyed about gardening is that it helps us almost trick ourselves into eating more vegetables. For awhile this summer, we had at least one cucumber coming in each day from the garden, and so for the most part, we were sharing a cucumber most days, an amount that we probably would not have thought to or been willing to buy at the store or the market. Fun stuff.

To add to what Debbie explained, it’s been understood for a long time that oil/fat helps with lycopene absorption, along with many other fat-soluble antioxidants and vitamins. Red (trans) lycopene, in part because of its flat bonds, forms tightly packed crystals within the cells, which leads to the decreased bioavailability. Lycopene with cis bonds doesn’t form such flat stacks, so it is gathered into globs of fat (lipids) within the cells. So in a sense it’s already partly dis-assembled for us as well as pre-packaged with extra oils to help with absorption. When I learned that, it made a lot more sense why the difference in bioavailability. Again, not earth-shattering, but fascinating nonetheless. It intrigues me to think about what I can continue on to learn about many different molecules in many different foods etc.

I’m looking forward to responding to other posts in a bit when I can take another break or when I finish work for the day.

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:18 pm**

I found a few more that haven't been mentioned (and which I'd forgotten!) when I went to check my seed binder.
Bursztyn is the name of the yellow-tangerine which I grew in 2015. Taste was not outstanding that year, I haven't regrown it.
'Yellow Clusters' is not the one that comes up in google, it is a translated name, of a beefsteak from Ukraine. Pale orange color, and a mild taste but very more-ish. I was surprised to find myself eating them up.
Samorodok is a tangerine heart which I got from Carolyn and grew in 2018. I only ate one and found it mild, but my Mom raved about these (she got the rest!).
Valencia is a tangerine orange which I haven't grown, described as a medium slicer, 80 days.
Ilya Muromets Orange also looks like a tangerine orange, but haven't grown it.
I'm sure there are lots more out there, lurking among the Betas.

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:21 pm**

Daniel Ricks wrote: ↑Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:34 am …
Shule wrote: ↑Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:33 pm I'm growing at least one or two high tetra-cis tomatoes, this year, but no cherries. None of them produced much for me, though! I don't think they like alkaline soil, or something. I'll have to check out their anthers to see how different they look to me.
What two were these out of curiosity? I'm contemplating getting Woodle Orange as a tangerine-type larger (but not too large) tomato, as well as Orange Roma as a tangerine paste type. Hopefully they've got good taste along with that nutrition

I'm growing Moonglow. After looking at my list, I think that's the only extra-high tetra-cis one I'm growing, but I am growing others with at least some tetra-cis. Most, if not all, of the fruits I've picked of Moonglow have had BER, though (it has produced quite a few of them, though, but they've all been small, with BER). I should check it again. It did have calcium added before the transplant, though, the same as many other tomatoes I'm growing. They all have drought conditions, too.

I'm also growing these orange tomatoes, this year:
* Kellogg's Breakfast (this is probably my best-producing orange beefsteak, this year)
* KBX (no fruit, yet)
* Amana Orange (This has my favorite taste and texture among the orange tomatoes I've grown and tasted.)
* Djenna Lee's Golden Girl (Not sure if it has produced fruit, yet. It probably has a few, at least.)

and these yellow tomatoes, this year:
* Sweet Orange Cherry (yes, it's yellow, just like Galapagos Island, but probably doesn't get quite as orange when extra extra ripe; I haven't checked its anthers, yet; it's mixed up in a tomato jungle and there's a Galapagos Island tomato next to it; so, it's hard to tell which fruits belong to it, as they look similar; I have other Galapagos Island tomato plants in other locations—so that's how I don't have that problem with it)
* Esterina F1
* A Medovaya Kaplya cross F2 (this one's been doing decently; big round yellow cherries that are kind of sweet to moderately high in sweetness; PL plant)
* Egg Yolk (this one can climb without encouragement)
* Yellow Plum (these actually get orange-ish when very, very ripe)
* Afternoon Delight
* A Jim Dandy cross F2 (a multiflora cherry)

And this light-apricot colored tomato:
* Cherokee Yellow Perfection Peach (exceptionally sweet and good in a unique way, but not anything like early; apricot-sized fruits)

And these bicolor tomatoes (that include orange in their colors):
* Isis Candy (This is probably a lot closer to an orange cherry than Galapagos Island but I didn't think about it before, but mine are a little too big to call cherries; they're predominantly orange; most of the fruits look more of a mottled orange than bicolor to me, but some are bicolor, at least, and some seem to get red)
* Afternoon Delight

We've grown at least these orange varieties in the past:
* Orange Minsk
* Sweet Ozark Orange (I consider this very reliable; large fruits; decent producer.)
* Amana Orange
* Kellogg's Beefsteak
* Big Sungold Select (this is an orange cherry; never checked the anthers, but it tasted great, albeit not terribly sweet)
* Persimmon (unique taste; kind of late)
* Valencia (These taste great refrigerated, actually, IMO.)
* Aladdin's Lamp
* Dad's Sunset

and at least these yellow/gold ones (in the past):
* Mexican Yellow (good production; I recommend)
* Lemon Boy F1
* Lemon Boy F2 (This is the most dangerous tomato I've tasted. It felt sour enough to strip tooth enamel. I didn't eat more than one or two—probably just one—and that with great caution and amazement.)
* Yellow Pear
* Medovaya Kaplya
* Golden King of Siberia
* A Jim Dandy cross F1
* A tomato that was supposed to be Ambrosia Red (it was a yellow, golfball-sized tomato)
* Yellow Trifele
* Sweet Orange Cherry
* Galapagos Island
* Gold Nugget
* Anna Banana Russian
* Gold Dust
* a Galapagos Island cross F1
* a Sweet Orange Cherry cross F1
* an F2 of the above
* Taxi
* Ildi
* Yellow Riesentraube
* Yellow Ruffled (this is a good one, but late)
* Aunt Gertie's Gold

And at least these bicolors that are supposed to include orange in their colors:
* Virginia Sweets
* Old German
* Pineapple (mine was pure yellow)
* Orange and Green Zebra

And this peach-ish colored tomato (probably the same color as Cherokee Yellow Perfection Peach; same size):
* Wapsipinicon Peach

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:07 pm**

Bower wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:02 am Just a quick comment about cherry sized fruit - it is easy easy to recover cherry size from any cross with a cherry. Size wants to default to cherry. Larger size much harder to recover. So it would work well for that project to use a tangerine parent of any size, if the other parent is a cherry.
I would avoid using any Beta parent, because that would complicate your results unnecessarily (which orange is which?)

[mention]Bower[/mention] Thanks Bower! That definitely gives me a lot more options and flexibility in my hatching and scheming. Except for the beta part. There’s a stabilized Sungold that is said to retain the unique aroma of Sungold that I was considering using as one of four parents, but if it is anything like Sungold, I’ve seen that most people think Sungold is a Beta.. hmm. I’ve thought if I do end up doing that, I may need to do some test crosses later to check for the orange lines being dominant or recessive.. as you mention, adding complexity to the project, maybe unnecessarily. To offset that some, I was planning on planting out many many seedlings in a tighter-than-normal row and culling aggressively based on the darkness/orange color of the first set or two of blossoms. (This would be at the F2 of the ((Tangerine 1 x Something Else 1) x (Tangerine 2 x Something Else 2)), so if I’ve carried it through right, at this stage a quarter of the plants would be homozygous for tangerine.)

The reason I like the idea of including one of these stabilized sungolds that retain the aroma is that I’ve read that the unique flavor also follows along to some degree. I’ve lost the interest I had in the past of recreating an OP version of Sungold— that plant is a masterpiece. I’m now in favor of creating something unique but in a similar league of awesome. Having Sungold somewhere in its (the new thing’s) parentage seems like a good way to blend in excellence, especially now that I have looked again and can find no trace of any kind of utility patent or international protection of any sort for the Sungold like I thought existed in the past. Maybe that’s my ignorance though. Seems like that kind of stuff should be a bit easier to find.
Whew.. pardon the word vomit. Thoughts?

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:23 pm**

[mention]OhioGardener[/mention] Debbie, thanks for the info on the tomato-seed-importing situation. Nice that you made it in the nick of time! I agree that HFCRT is not likely to do the testing because they do express their specific interest in focusing on New Zealand residents, but gladly they’ve been willing to provide seeds to people over here too on the side. I’ll happily take you up on the seed swap offer, and I like your idea of donating to them regardless. I’ll PM you.

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:35 pm**

I think it's been confirmed that Sungold is a Beta. Flowers are not tangerine type.
I've noticed that the tt-orange color varies in the flowers of different varieties somewhat, just as the intensity of fruit color does as well. But if you grow some different tt varieties you'll get used to the color and what to look for. In some flowers you don't see the orangey shade so much in anthers as in the petals as they fade, which is very distinctive when compared with the regular tomato flowers, almost a chalky orange pastel. As long as you're confident that you can ID your tt tangerine by the flowers alone, it wouldn't matter that you used a Beta parent. I like the idea of selecting for your tt plants early using the flowers. Great way to maximize your tt selection.
I'm not sure how the presence of Beta would affect your tt fruit. I believe tangerine would override Beta because it's a mutation that affects the carotenoid synthesis process early on in the pathway - earlier than the stage where beta-carotene is formed. So I will speculate that you could have a BBtt plant that would predominantly make cis-lycopene and not beta carotene. There are also 'enhancer' genes that promote one carotenoid or the other, but as Sungold has never been touted for high beta carotene, maybe not in this case. IDK how those interactions might affect your final carotenoid profile, maybe not at all.
Ultimately, it's important to work with parents that you really like! There is no prohibition that I know of, on using Sungold itself or an OP version that you like. So.. why not?

Please share some pics as you go along.

Cool stuff.

Posted: **Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:44 pm**

OhioGardener wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:04 pm From what I've read in research papers though, it's still not as optimal as the tetra-cis orange

This was my conclusion too, that based on the studies I could find, even in the case of cooking the tetra-cis (which actually degrades a lot of the tetra-cis, you end up with at least the same, but maybe higher amounts of bio available lycopene than from a red sauce.

Posted: **Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:18 am**

Shule wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:49 pm If you're interested in some of those Kellogg's Beefsteak cross F2 seeds, let me know. The fruits on the F1 are about 1" in diameter, and very firm. I need to reply to your other post, still.

[mention]Shule[/mention]
Sure, it could be fun to see what comes of it.

I'm not sure how many I'd be able to grow next year, since I'll be moving in February. I'm hoping the next place has some nice space for expanding the garden. Are you planning on growing some of it too?

Posted: **Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:24 am**

[mention]Bower[/mention] and [mention]Shule[/mention] : I see your other posts with some more varieties and your experiences with them.. Thank you! I'll be looking into these over the next couple of days.

We've got quite the list coming together, perhaps later we can formalize it into categories for people who are curious.

Posted: **Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:31 pm**

[mention]Bower[/mention] Thanks for walking me through that about the breeding ideas. By the way, let me know what happens if you ever grow out that black tangerine combo.. orange retaining chlorophyll? Do you think that would make one of those muddy brown colored ones?

I’m not super confident in my ability to screen by flower color yet, but hopefully like you say, with more varieties and practice I may get a better eye for it. With Datlo being one of the parents, hopefully its extra-dark orange anthers would pass through and make the job easier.

I realized that the way I had been thinking about Beta mixing with tangerine and doing test crosses was off, and that if the selections I’ve picked have BBtt, then it might require two generations of test cross growing-out. Since that would get even messier, I would prefer to weed BB out and end up with only tt as quickly as possible. Checking my logic with you on what could be the simplest cross to test for the presence of Beta: crossing with a red should result in an orange in the F1 if I’ve got BB, right?

Maybe I can add another screening step of which plants to move forward based on whether they blush to red at overripeness, since if I recall, that would help distinguish Beta vs tangerine.

Yeah, I’ll keep y’all in the loop as this project comes to life. I’ll be starting a thread soon over in the breeding section to talk through one of the other main facets I’m hoping to include.

Posted: **Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:21 pm**

You might want to have a read through the June Bug thread on TV. This was a cross between Jaune Flamee and Black Cherry

Posted: **Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:38 pm**

Jaune Flamee is a beta carotein type, much like Caro Rich. If SunGold F1 is, too, then SunOrange F1, probably is, too, as well as probably my SunOrange F2 next year.

Posted: **Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:11 pm**

Daniel Ricks wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:18 am
Shule wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:49 pm If you're interested in some of those Kellogg's Beefsteak cross F2 seeds, let me know. The fruits on the F1 are about 1" in diameter, and very firm. I need to reply to your other post, still.
@Shule
Sure, it could be fun to see what comes of it. I'm not sure how many I'd be able to grow next year, since I'll be moving in February. I'm hoping the next place has some nice space for expanding the garden. Are you planning on growing some of it too?

I want to grow it, but I've already got too many high priority cherry tomatoes planned for next year, and I only intended to grow a few. If I do grow it, I'll probably overseed and not thin to improve the chances of getting an orange one. Hopefully each plant in the spot would produce at least one fruit in such crowded conditions.

PM me your address and I can send you the seeds. If you change your mind about growing them next year, that's okay by me. You can grow them whenever, or do whatever you want with them.

Posted: **Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:43 pm**

Daniel Ricks wrote: ↑Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:31 pm @Bower Thanks for walking me through that about the breeding ideas. By the way, let me know what happens if you ever grow out that black tangerine combo.. orange retaining chlorophyll? Do you think that would make one of those muddy brown colored ones?

I’m not super confident in my ability to screen by flower color yet, but hopefully like you say, with more varieties and practice I may get a better eye for it. With Datlo being one of the parents, hopefully its extra-dark orange anthers would pass through and make the job easier.

I realized that the way I had been thinking about Beta mixing with tangerine and doing test crosses was off, and that if the selections I’ve picked have BBtt, then it might require two generations of test cross growing-out. Since that would get even messier, I would prefer to weed BB out and end up with only tt as quickly as possible. Checking my logic with you on what could be the simplest cross to test for the presence of Beta: crossing with a red should result in an orange in the F1 if I’ve got BB, right?

Maybe I can add another screening step of which plants to move forward based on whether they blush to red at overripeness, since if I recall, that would help distinguish Beta vs tangerine.

Yeah, I’ll keep y’all in the loop as this project comes to life. I’ll be starting a thread soon over in the breeding section to talk through one of the other main facets I’m hoping to include.

[mention]Daniel Ricks[/mention] If you want to weed out the Beta, hmmm I'm not sure you can.
Supposing one parent is BB-- and the other is --tt in a red background, ( likely a deep orange not a yellow-tangerine).
Noting that Beta is not expressed in a yellow background, If you choose yellow tangerine, you will never see any Beta alleles expressed, so you have no way of selecting against it.
In the red background, your F1 will be B-t- and will have the traits of Beta showing in fruit that ripens orange then red (or orange-red) .
In the F2, assuming the anthers come through, the BBtt would be recognizable as tangerine - and same as B-tt or --tt plants.
Again you have no way of knowing if Beta is present or not.
The plan of selecting for tangerine flower color basically means that Beta is either suppressed or ignored, one way or another.

We are assuming that tt will overrule Beta, show its anthers etc. Now maybe you will have subtle differences in the flower colors that may be caused by presence of one or more Beta allele. IDK. You will have to do the experiment and find out.

Re: gf and t, I have grown out some Beta gf crosses and they were like a light muddy brown, orange-brown I guess. Mud, I hear the name Mudball is already taken, too bad.

Inside colors can be nice, though. I don't mind a brown tomato if it's tasty.

Posted: **Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:02 pm**

[mention]Bower[/mention]
I hear dogs like the smell of beta carotene. So, maybe a carrot-loving dog could assist in selecting it out.

Posted: **Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:09 pm**

[mention]Shule[/mention] don't tell me to breed a brown tomato shaped like a stick, it's too much!

Posted: **Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:46 am**

[mention]Shule[/mention] [mention]Bower[/mention]
Hmm, I can see the naming possibilities already.. Best Friend's Brown? Lucky Throw? Catch me if you Tan?

Posted: **Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:09 pm**

Daniel Ricks wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:49 am
Clkeiper wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:23 am
Hi clkeiper, I’m asking about cherry tomatoes specifically because it seems like there’s a lot less information available out there on high pro-lycopene cherry-sized varieties. The HFCRT has a huge list with mostly medium-to-large varieties, and of the handful of smaller-sized ones they have tested, one was a Beta and a couple of others are selections they have been doing on their own. Golden grape looked like a good option that I found to be available in the US. With new US seed regulations for tomatoes, it looks like I can’t really access their seed, but maybe I could reach out to them and see if they are able to provide disease-free certification with it to make it possible.

More on the motivation for cherry-size: since other larger sizes end up in sauces and pastes more often, they get cooked, which in the case of red tomatoes ends up converting some of the trans bonds into cis bonds for absorption when we eat it. 95% or more of the small-sized tomatoes my family eats are fresh, not cooked, which means that if I want to ‘level up’ our lycopene nutrition a bit, getting some high tetra-cis cherries growing (in addition to some larger varieties) should help achieve that aim. When they’re in season, my family practically inhales the cherries we’ve grown so far.

I believe Juane Flammee is a Beta because it blushes to red, but the amazing way you describe it sure makes me want to grow it too! Ha.

I have several growing in my high tunnel still at this late date. there is not any red blush to any of them.

Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)

Re: Favorite tangerine cherry? (does it have orange anthers?)