Pictures are pretty telling. I will post results of the compost test in a day or two. The date on the paper is when I started the test. Pictures were taken last night.
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Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:29 am
by brownrexx
Wow. That looks bad.
Is there soil under that hay and it is really hay or straw?
I usually plant both of my test beans in the same soil, in separate pots of course, and then water one with water that has the questionable straw soaked in it.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:37 am
by karstopography
So, Hay, which would be some sort of grass, and meant for fodder or I suppose garden mulch is treated with a broadleaf herbicide and that herbicide remains active in the hay long enough and strong enough to kill broadleaf plants for perhaps months after the treatment? Is this the basic outline of what happened here?
So does that mean potentially all hay, straw, purchased from a source that sources material from multiple unknown sources is a threat to the garden?
Has anyone brought this up with the vendors of the hay? Once it becomes common knowledge, that will be sure to kill that line of business. Are there vendors of hay or straw that somehow certify or ensure they source hay, straw from sources not contaminated by herbicide?
This should be big news if this Herbicide contamination is not just an isolated event, which I highly suspect it is not.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:42 am
by Steve73
Brownrexx.......there is potting soil in all of the cups. It is hay sitting on top of the soil.
Karstopography.......Im pretty sure there are lots of people experiencing this. I'm just reporting my own results so that others can be more aware of what to look for.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:38 am
by MissS
A good experiment. Kids in schools should have to do this one.Hay. How sad that they are treating hay with these chemicals. This is what is being fed to our food supply and then into us and our children. This can not be good for anyone but big Ag. It's ruining our food supply, our gardens and our pollinators. I wonder how long our planet can survive it.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:59 am
by worth1
Lawyers are advertising about suing Monsanto.
I suspect this will help big time.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:08 am
by Steve73
Worth1.....I surely doubt that a small time hobby gardener like myself can really make much of a difference, but all we can do is put the word out. My course of action at this point is to just not accept manure, compost or hay on my property from outside sources. I'm not trying to cause anyone trouble, but they can keep their chemicals to themselves as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully posts like these will keep others from having to go through this.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:11 am
by brownrexx
Steve73 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:42 am
Brownrexx.......there is potting soil in all of the cups. It is hay sitting on top of the soil.
In that case it really looks like the hay is your culprit.
Is it really hay or is it straw?
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:25 am
by Steve73
Brownrexx.....Around here we call it hay (grass that is cut and then baled). Whatever you care to call it, it appears to be contaminated.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:49 am
by brownrexx
In most places, hay is generally used as animal feed and is the entire grass plant which is cut and baled as you said. Straw is used for bedding and has virtually no nutritional value for animals. It is mostly stems of the wheat plant since the seed heads have been harvested as a grain crop.
I got a bale of hay one time and it was totally full of seeds whereas the straw has some seeds but not nearly as many, it is mostly hollow stems.
There may be differences in how they are raised and chemically treated too. I am not sure about that but I would definitely say that the hay was the cause of your problem.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:42 am
by MsCowpea
Really disturbing to see your test. I remember reading about Clopyralid contaminated compost 10 years ago and it has been in the news off and
on ever since. No changes , and if anything, regulations across the board have weakened in favor of chemical corporations.
Charles Dowding, author of many books and YouTube videos on organic gardening. Market grower.
This is really good as it explains how to hasten the chemical out of your compost. You have to spread it- don’t leave it in a pile or it could stay there for years.
He got Dow agent to come out and agent said they have very few reports so the problem is rare. Unfortunately, under reported. Also Dow representative came back to say the issue may be nutrient deficiency.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:34 am
by Steve73
I've seen some of the Dowding videos. He puts out some good info.
No doubt that Dow will continue to push irresponsible farming practices. I don't see that changing any time soon. Too much money involved.
Gardening is a big part of my life. It is something important to me. My wife usually cans about 30 quarts of tomatoes each year. That's not going to happen this year. That's a lot of food that got pulled off our table. This is what really upsets me. Do I think that Dow cares? Not a chance.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:01 pm
by zeuspaul
I have six bales of hay I set aside many years ago after reading about possible contamination with herbicides. I never asked about the source because I didn't believe I would get an answer I could trust.
Now I use mostly chemical fertilizers and compost and mulch I make myself.
karstopography wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:37 am
So, Hay, which would be some sort of grass, and meant for fodder or I suppose garden mulch is treated with a broadleaf herbicide and that herbicide remains active in the hay long enough and strong enough to kill broadleaf plants for perhaps months after the treatment? Is this the basic outline of what happened here?
So does that mean potentially all hay, straw, purchased from a source that sources material from multiple unknown sources is a threat to the garden?
Has anyone brought this up with the vendors of the hay? Once it becomes common knowledge, that will be sure to kill that line of business. Are there vendors of hay or straw that somehow certify or ensure they source hay, straw from sources not contaminated by herbicide?
This should be big news if this Herbicide contamination is not just an isolated event, which I highly suspect it is not.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:21 pm
by karstopography
I wonder how many people think they are terrible gardeners when it is herbicide contamination in the straw wrecking their efforts?
I’m going to say that either the grower of the straw/hay and/or the wholesale buyer/middleman and/or garden center retailer is the one or ones at fault, either knowingly, which should be a criminally irresponsible action and certainly has civil consequences, or unknowingly which makes it more of a civil matter. The manufacturer of the herbicide has all sorts of regulatory restrictions and hurdles that have been crossed and scrutinized repeatedly. One can argue for or against the practice of using herbicide X, but if it is an EPA approved chemical, then how is the manufacturer liable?
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:27 pm
by karstopography
Now, if the manufacturer knowingly obscured, altered, withheld data about herbicide X, then that makes them liable. If anyone that ever had anything to do with the contaminated hay or straw and knew it was going to be used in a situation where the contamination would cause subsequent damage, then they should be liable.
Plaintiffs Attorneys normally go after deep pockets in these matters, so that would point them towards the makers. Really, the person or persons most at blame are the ones that knew the hay had herbicide and didn’t disclose that information.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:42 pm
by Steve73
Personally I have very little interest in the legal side of things. I'm not really trying to blame anyone. Maybe I'm just expressing my frustration in a bad way. The manufacturer is not liable, but that doesn't mean that its not irresponsible. They are fully aware of what is going on. As I said in a previous post, I will just refrain from using anything that has their product on it.
If anything, I blame myself for being ignorant of all of this. I spread some hay and compost in my garden, and inadvertently killed my plants and poisoned my soil.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:10 pm
by MissS
Steve73 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:42 pm
If anything, I blame myself for being ignorant of all of this. I spread some hay and compost in my garden, and inadvertently killed my plants and poisoned my soil.
It's a tough lesson to learn in this New World that we are trying to live in. Hay, straw, compost such easy, simple basic things have become toxic in our New World.
Re: Tomato and bean test results part 1
Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:03 am
by peebee
Oh my...really sorry this happened to you [mention]Steve73[/mention] , this really shook me up cuz I bought 2 bales of straw from a feed supply store for the first time in my life, and everything in my garden is mulched with it. Happy to say it was safe, but I will no longer take chances in the future. Which is fine, as I don't have a truck & it was a pain to coordinate transport. Plus the birds took away so much for their nests, then the winds took some more. I noticed that the free pine leaves I mulched with last year, were still intact & in place & proved to be an excellent cover. No seeds to deal with either. So I will be foraging for more from now on.
Thank you for warning us, I will spread the word too to other gardeners.
