Gosh, I’m Terrible

[karstopography]

At saving seeds. Correction, I save seeds, but how many remain viable when I decide to plant them, not so very many.

Planted 27 tomato 4” pots potting soil, this December 23rd. Multiple seeds in each chamber. Temperatures I do believe were correct, 70-80 degrees. Maybe I’ll get 5 tomatoes out of the deal when it is all said and done. Weak sprouts, headless sprouts, deformed sprouts, no sprouts. No seeds older than 3 years or at least acquired from famous vendors no more than 3 years past. Most acquired within 2-3 years, maybe a few less than 2 years old.

Have since read humidity, like almost anything above desert level dew points, relative humidity is the big ginormous enemy of seed longevity. Excessive Heat not so great either. If either temperature or dew point or both add up to 100, bad, bad, bad. I get 150 on those combined or more at times, very, very, very bad. So should I store seed I want to remain viable in the fridge or freezer or just expect to buy fresh seed every year. I do realize different plants different seeds, different lifespans. Bigger stuff like squash seems to hang in there for longer.

Just looking for ideas. Seed saving has been a very poor and lagging part of my overall improving gardening skill set. Looking for some general tips to up my game. Even indoors, the numbers add up and look bad. I can’t change the climate, but I could freeze seed if that’s the way to go.

[Tormato]

"potting soil"

Unless that's a misprint, that's your first problem. You need soilless seed starting mix.

Tomato seed kept out of direct sunlight, at 72 degrees or less, shouldn't lose any viability for the first three years, some in the 4th and fifth years including taking longer to germinate, 6th year germination and headless problems, many don't germinate for me beyond 7 years.

[karstopography]

Soiless seed starting mix, where does one find that? I don’t recall seeing that at the local feed store or big box deal.

[Tormato]

Most places should have it early in the gardening year.

Jiffy is probably the most popular brand. Some confusion exists because some packages are labeled as potting mix (not potting soil). Peat is the main ingredient in many mixes. I don't recommend mixing/making one's own seed starter until they are experienced with the materials involved. A big box store may have knowledgeable people to help, but a true garden center should have those people.

[karstopography]

I see that Lowe’s has seed starting mix listed on their website. We don’t really have any garden centers remaining where I live, not without a long drive. The big box stores or people going to the big box places killed off the local garden centers off long ago. Lowe’s, HD, Walmart, tractor supply, the feed store, that’s about it for a 40-50 mile radius.

Is it advisable to freeze seed for long term storage? Keeping seed under 72 degrees in the house isn’t going to happen even in the Air conditioning. I’d freeze to death with things that cool inside. Most the summer it is 75 or 77 inside, I’d rather have it at 80, but would lose a wife with that temperature.What it is is the house is about 65 degrees inside when it is cool or cold outside and 75 or so when it is warm or hot. I don’t like running the climate control a ton.

[Tormato]

Hopefully, someone with experience will chime in.

I hear that tomato seeds need to have the right moisture content for freezing. Refrigeration sounds safer, perhaps some airtight container with a food grade desiccant pack inside, along with the seeds.

[rxkeith]

our feed and seed has seed starter that i buy in a compressed bale. it lasts for years at my level of usage.
if you try freezing your seeds, moisture content is important i have read. seed moisture needs to be down to
six percent. too much moisture in the seed will cause damage and basically kill it. how do you measure moisture
level in a seed beats me. never done it.

i have pretty good success with my own saved seeds. i can have seeds that are 10-12 years old that will germinate better
than brand new seeds. the seeds i have stored in repurposed tea packets that tea bags come in still germinate like fresh seeds.
the packets are the foil type that twining tea comes in.

so, first find some seed starter mix, and see how that goes.
if you are saving your own seeds in a moist humid environment, a dehydrator may be helpful.
if just storing seeds is an issue, keep them in a bag or container that is moisture proof, like a tea bag for individual seeds
or maybe a foil lined bag for the whole lot.


keith

[Paulf]

What is your method for saving seeds? If you use the fermentation method, if you allow the seeds to ferment too long they lose potentency. No more than five days before getting the seeds out of the process seems to work best for me. Then air drying thoroughly before storage in an air tight container. I store my saved seed in 35mm film containers and some in old prescription containers and keep in our cool basement.

As for starting to grow, I use soilless mix while others use the starting mix. Both are about the same formula with starter being milled more finely. I use whatever is on sale like Miracle-Gro or Schultz or even Master Gardener with relatively good success. My experience with Jiffy is not so good, but that most likely is just me. Absolutely do not use potting soil or garden soil.

Tomato seeds in the 8-12 year old range give me around 50% germination...newer seed increases germination rates. I do not refrigerate or freeze seeds having read freezing tends to have ice crystals form inside and kill the seeds. I plant in 2" pots and then repot after two true leaves into 3" pots until planting outside or into larger containers.

[Seven Bends]

I don't do anything special to store my seeds; they're just in a plastic shoe box in the main part of my house. My house is pretty cold in the winter (low to mid-sixties), moderate in the summer (68-74ish), and kind of all over the place in spring and fall but never more than 78 or so. It's humid here, but the air conditioner controls the indoor humidity in summer. Last winter I planted Fourth of July tomato seeds from 2012 and most of them came up and were healthy. Same with several varieties from 2014 and 2015. I did have no germination on one other variety from 2012, but that was the only one with a problem.

My point is, if your house temperature mainly stays mid-70s or below, and you control the humidity of the seeds reasonably well, you shouldn't have a problem due to seed storage for seeds that are just a few years old. If the seeds are regularly in 80-degree+ temps, or it's really humid in your house and they're not in an airtight container with a dessicant, maybe that would be a concern and you should think about refrigerator storage.

I'd look at your seed germinating conditions -- soil, moisture level, temperature. Is this the first time you've had this germination trouble, or does this happen every year? What "soil" product did you use, and was this a new bag/new product for you or have you successfully used that particular bag of stuff before? Did you use a heat mat? How (and how much) did you water? How many of the seeds didn't germinate at all, vs. how many germinated but had problems?

Seed starting mix is the safest bet, though I often just use regular soil-less potting mix and pick the sticks and bark out of it. Every once in awhile I run into a bad bag of mix and the seedlings germinate or grow poorly. So, if this is the first time you've had this bad experience, get a different soil product and try again.

Espoma is good and is widely available online, including at Park Seed. Black Gold seedling mix worked well for me and is available from Ace Hardware stores. Home Depot carries Jiffy (has worked well for me), Burpee (a coir product, not my favorite but others like it), and Miracle Gro (their mixes have been very hit-or-miss for me, sometimes great, sometimes a problem). Hoffman is highly recommended but I haven't tried it. Gardener's Supply's own-label product also looks good.

The other thing I would look at is moisture, especially if you're bottom-watering. It's really easy to rot/drown your seeds and seedlings. I find it's better to water gently from the top and be sure to let the top dry slightly before watering again. Also, if you're using a heat mat, it's easy to overheat things. I never had any trouble with helmet-head seedlings until I started using a heat mat. I still use one but it's just something I've noticed.

Lastly, I wasn't sure from your post -- are you talking about your own saved seed, or purchased seed, or both? If your own saved seed, are you sure about your saving technique? Is there a chance the seeds could have been in water too long if you used the fermenting method, and they sprouted or rotted a little before you dried and saved them?

[karstopography]

Thanks for all the insight and shared experiences/expertise. So, I was and have been storing my seeds in the garage, the non climate controlled garage. Yep, I see this a huge mistake now. The Seeds I was talking about in the OP were tomato seeds purchased from recognizable Name vendors no earlier than 2019. Seeds were left in original packaging which varied from the typical paper envelope type to tiny zip bags. Seems like what did sprout was from the zip bag stash.

I did purchase today from Lowe’s jiffy seed starter mix. $5.99/ 3+ lbs.

Based on the replies, I will surely bring inside the remaining other seeds to store inside, especially once the weather heats up. I’ll look at the packaging and look to what I have as options that will be the most moisture excluding. I don’t really have any appreciable remaining tomato seeds, I pretty much used up the few remaining ones. Last year, these same seeds from the same orders from the same vendors all sprouted well in my potting soil, so the big decline in germination happened over the course of 2021.

Based on everyone’s replies, I think my storing the seeds out in a more or less hot and humid garage ( 6 months of the year) was by far the biggest factor in the decline of germination rates. That’s an easy fix. My buddy has excess tomato sets so I can work out a trade for those. I’ll likely order more seeds later in the year, the fall, for the 2023 season, those that don’t get used will be stored inside in something air tight.

[zeuspaul]

I save seed from fully ripe or over ripe tomatoes. I mush them through a sieve while rinsing with water. Then a final rinse after applying some OxiClean. Then I place them in a tiny bowl to dry. When partially dry I rub them between my fingers to keep them from sticking to each other and then let them continue to dry.

I store them inside. I live in a dry climate, rarely a lot of humidity. I turn on AC when indoor temps get into the nineties. Paper envelopes or zip lock bags. If necessary I would opt for the refrigerator over the freezer.

I germinate the seed in a tiny white bowl of water. In two or three days when I first see the sprout I rinse the seed and plant in a 2 inch deep pot. I carefully get the delicate seedling with a tooth pick and place it on top of the soil and then cover it with 1/4 inch of soil. Then water well and place under the lights. Over 95 % of the time I see the sprout in 2 or 3 days. I don't use a heat mat. Most recently for my micro project I warmed the bowl with a 7 1/2 watt light bulb because indoor temps have dropped into the upper fifties.

I use recycled potting mix that I blended myself years ago. It is bark fines, peat, DE and compost sifted from the bottom of a pile of ground tree trimmings among other things that have crept in over time. I see some perlite in there. I read recently that currently available DE from automotive stores is not calcined and turns to mush.

For seedlings I sieve out the larger stuff. I blend in spent tea leaves and crushed egg shells. I add a little fertilizer of various types depending on what I have available. Blood, bone or Milorganite or potash if I have it. I add some more peat because that disappears faster than the bark over time. The DE seems to last forever.

Sometimes I sterilize it in the oven, sometimes in the sun and sometimes not. I haven't noticed a difference. The only time I had damping off problems was when I subjected the seedlings to *tough love*. If I place them outdoors cool, damp, breezy or rainy conditions doesn't work well for them. Now I use just lights. Taking them in and out is too much for me in my aging years.

[Seven Bends]

Sounds like you've figured out your problem and solution. Is it too late to start seeds down there now? If not, I'll happily send you some (lots); just PM me or post your wish list here.

[bower]

I have to chime in and say, I only had poor germination on one year's seeds, and then I realized I hadn't followed my usual procedure for humidity control.
We also have quite a moist climate and house moisture is at its tops in the fall due to having windows open all summer and not using the furnace for heat yet in early fall. My standard practice has been to stash my saved tomato seeds in paper envelopes until the heat has been turned on for the fall, and the house has dried out for a week or two. Then I move the seeds into plastic zips for long term storage. They are kept out of direct sun in a cabinet. I've seen germination rates close to 100% on seeds 9-10 years old which were stored this way.
The year I had poor germination, I didn't move the seeds into zip bags. I kept them in paper envelopes and eventually filed them away in the same envelopes.
My thoughts about the germination, the seeds actually dried out too much during the winter of home heating, and reduced viability the result.
So they can be too humid, but they can also be too dry for long term storage.
There's some optimal moisture content which is not 'zero' but I believe 15% or lower but no way to calculate that. I just went back to my previous method which has always worked really well, for seeds to stay viable long term.

[karstopography]

@Seven Bends sort of kind of late really, but I do appreciate the very kind offer. I’m going to get some sets from a buddy. I will Buy a few from the feed store, they need the business. I plan on setting out the tomatoes by mid-late February.

[worth1]

You might try soaking over night in water and a pinch of miracle grow.
But my humidity isn't even close to the coast.
I've kept seed all over the place and they sprouted after years.

[Whwoz]

@karstopography, understand your problem with our normally hot summers and storing seed in a shed so I have opted to get a bar fridge solely for seed storage. On day over 100F, even with doors open, no breeze is going to cool that shed down.

[Tormato]

@karstopography, understand your problem with our normally hot summers and storing seed in a shed so I have opted to get a bar fridge solely for seed storage. On day over 100F, even with doors open, no breeze is going to cool that shed down.

"solely for seed storage"

Most would likely say, "I keep my fermentations in there."

[Whwoz]

@karstopography, understand your problem with our normally hot summers and storing seed in a shed so I have opted to get a bar fridge solely for seed storage. On day over 100F, even with doors open, no breeze is going to cool that shed down.

"solely for seed storage"

Most would likely say, "I keep my fermentations in there."

Aside from a bit of Kombucha, I rarely drink fermented fluids. Probably something to do with being gluten free, never developed a taste for them

[Tormato]

You don't ferment your tomato seeds?

[greenthumbomaha]

Thanks for all the insight and shared experiences/expertise. So, I was and have been storing my seeds in the garage, the non climate controlled garage. Yep, I see this a huge mistake now. The Seeds I was talking about in the OP were tomato seeds purchased from recognizable Name vendors no earlier than 2019. Seeds were left in original packaging which varied from the typical paper envelope type to tiny zip bags. Seems like what did sprout was from the zip bag stash.

I did purchase today from Lowe’s jiffy seed starter mix. $5.99/ 3+ lbs.

Based on the replies, I will surely bring inside the remaining other seeds to store inside, especially once the weather heats up. I’ll look at the packaging and look to what I have as options that will be the most moisture excluding. I don’t really have any appreciable remaining tomato seeds, I pretty much used up the few remaining ones. Last year, these same seeds from the same orders from the same vendors all sprouted well in my potting soil, so the big decline in germination happened over the course of 2021.

Based on everyone’s replies, I think my storing the seeds out in a more or less hot and humid garage ( 6 months of the year) was by far the biggest factor in the decline of germination rates. That’s an easy fix. My buddy has excess tomato sets so I can work out a trade for those. I’ll likely order more seeds later in the year, the fall, for the 2023 season, those that don’t get used will be stored inside in something air tight.

Karstopography,
Jiffy Seed Starting Mix 3 lb for $5.99 ??? That is a steal/deal !!!

Jiffy seems to be discontinued in bag form, only the kits with pellets are available here and online.
Lowes here sells Miracle Grow Seed Starter which I buy but find quite mucky. Small 8 qt bag is about $5.50 and I end up buying 5 or 6 bags.
Home Depot sells Burpee which is coir based, no experience with this, cost is around $5.50 8 or 12 qt bag. HD also carries Vermont Rec which works about the same cost if you need 1 cu or 2cu ft sizes but needs to be ordered.
Local nursery carrying Espoma is gone.
Expensive nursery carries Fertilome which I like very much but $$$$.
Will probably give the Burpee a chance, with MG for peppers.

- Lisa