I see this (85 days to maturity) often in catalogs and in trades, for "late" varieties.

In all my gardening over the years, observing several thousand plants, I've only once had a variety this late, Yellow Perfection which took 90 days. It being that late, and that awful, it has never returned. Every other variety, at one time or another has come in at no more than 78 days, for me.

Transplanting is usually around 28 to 30 days after sowing seeds. Seedlings are grown outside throughout May, transplanted about June 1st. If I have really bad weather and things are severely delayed, I don't keep track of DTM that year. Yes, in poor conditions, several varieties have been well past 78 days, but that is a rarity. In the varieties that I've trialed several times, the range of DTM is about 65 to 75 for "mid-season" varieties and about 70 to 80 days for "late" season varieties. Andes Horn and Opalka have been the latest, between 78 and 80 days. The earliest DTM happens when the weather is good and the first flower sets. Mid-range of DTM is usually average weather or good weather and the first flower doesn't set, but a flower on the first truss does set. Back end of the range is usually when no flowers on the first truss set. Going beyond 78 DTM, is usually a combination of negatives.

Just reading 85 DTM on the package is enough to put me off.
I'm pretty sure I've had some that were that late, even though they were supposed to be "80 day" varieties.
But we have a really cold and late spring, generally. And sometimes a miserable summer...
Maybe they should be measured in 'degree days'.

Bower wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:37 pm Just reading 85 DTM on the package is enough to put me off.
I'm pretty sure I've had some that were that late, even though they were supposed to be "80 day" varieties.
But we have a really cold and late spring, generally. And sometimes a miserable summer...
Maybe they should be measured in 'degree days'.

The catalog writers likely don't know what a degree day is.

When I first read about Pervaya Lyubov at 60 DTM, I was the biggest sceptic about it. I figured someone must have used about a 9 week old transplant.
So my first year trialing it, a 28 day old transplant, perfect weather, and it comes in at 58 days, 86 days from sowing.

For really early varieties, have you ever tried Cole?

Those numbers are not at all accurate in either of the cool-nights climates in which I’ve grown tomatoes. At best, they’re useful as comparative numbers. Last year, my earliest tomatoes (Early Wonder Pink) took 65 days to produce the first fruit— and I usually pick at first blush, not full (all-critters-come-have-a-taste) ripeness. Purple Boy F1 took 90 days (supposed to be 80 days). Uluru Ochre took 100 days (Victory says 65 days).
White Tomesol took 131 days (SSE says 80 days). Pink Princess cherry tomato 100 days. Granted, it was unusually hot very early in the season, and all the heat waves stressed the plants and caused lots of blossom drop, but the trend has been pretty consistent.

The previous climate had days in the 70s-80s in the summer, nights 50s-60s, and in that climate, eggplants and peppers and melons were a bit of a challenge. My current climate has days in the 90s+ (Nights still 50s-60s), so peppers and eggplants thrive (and I’m planning to try a bunch of melons!).

@Tormato I have seeds of Cole but haven't tried it. I ran out of space for trialing more early reds, as very few of them were tasty. I guess Cole must be a good one, if you recommend it!
Breeding projects eat up tomato spaces like crazy. The up side is, they're getting really well adapted.

I won't grow late varieties because they are flourishing when the first frost hits and it's very discouraging.

How about this? I grew Juni last summer (as an experiment because I didn't believe that it could be all THAT early). 72 days from sowing the seed to the first ripe 'mater.

Linda

Bower wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:13 am @Tormato I have seeds of Cole but haven't tried it. I ran out of space for trialing more early reds, as very few of them were tasty. I guess Cole must be a good one, if you recommend it!
Breeding projects eat up tomato spaces like crazy. The up side is, they're getting really well adapted.

I didn't recommend it, only asked if you've tried it.

It's always the earliest tomato to ripen in my garden. I find seedlings vigorous, as I once transplanted at 23 days from sowing, the earliest transplant in my garden. I wonder what can be breed from it?

The only extra early variety that I would recommend is Early Wonder Pink, and it's only OK. Habitat-Gardener says there is a second OK one, which I'll likely try this year. Cole would make a "good" salad tomato, as it's quite meaty with not much gel. Drown it in your favorite salad dressing. I like French, Catalina, or Russian, as these are tomato based, and fool my taste buds into thinking lousy tomatoes taste good.

You really need to get others to eat up their garden space with your breeding projects. I'd be open to extra early determinate pinks, maybe reds, no blacks.

It does sound like Cole would be a good candidate for breeding interesting things. I agree with you 100% on the proper disposition of 'good red salad tomato' - it's all about the dressing so bring em on.
Hard to believe I haven't had time to post pics of the breeding projects from 2021 yet, but hey, February's coming.
It's too bad you don't like blacks, but I do have a bunch of other projects in the works, and you can take your pick, but they're in earlier stages.
I have a gorgeous and delicious early determinate pink that was not quite 100% stable this year, expecting stability in 2022 (again!) at F8.
But... it is actually a gf, that ripens dark pink. Does that violate the rule of blacks?

Bower wrote: ↑Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:37 pm Just reading 85 DTM on the package is enough to put me off.
I'm pretty sure I've had some that were that late, even though they were supposed to be "80 day" varieties.
But we have a really cold and late spring, generally. And sometimes a miserable summer...
Maybe they should be measured in 'degree days'.

Same here. If I see 85-90 DTM or "Late Season" in a description, I avoid that variety. Sometimes, with great sadness!

I grew Cole a few years ago, and might grow it again this summer. It is the earliest I have ever grown and it is quite prolific. Will it win any taste contests? Perhaps not, it has an average taste. But with our summers sometimes very short and/or cool, it's sometimes best to go with a few varieties that are simply hardy, dependable, and productive. In our climate, we don't always have the luxury of growing the uber delicious, mid-to-late season varieties.

Bower wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:24 am It does sound like Cole would be a good candidate for breeding interesting things. I agree with you 100% on the proper disposition of 'good red salad tomato' - it's all about the dressing so bring em on.
Hard to believe I haven't had time to post pics of the breeding projects from 2021 yet, but hey, February's coming.
It's too bad you don't like blacks, but I do have a bunch of other projects in the works, and you can take your pick, but they're in earlier stages.
I have a gorgeous and delicious early determinate pink that was not quite 100% stable this year, expecting stability in 2022 (again!) at F8.
But... it is actually a gf, that ripens dark pink. Does that violate the rule of blacks?

In a thread the other day, I mentioned that "dark pink" is my favorite color. To me, this means a dark red interior with clear skin.

Any red interior with green flesh on the perimeter and/or green gel, I consider "black". I'll keep trialing a few, here and there. While I'm not sure, I believe it's the ones with the green gel that I find the most revolting. I don't know if clear or yellow skin has anything to do with my liking (rare ), or not liking dark tomatoes.

Tormato wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:47 am

Bower wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:24 am It does sound like Cole would be a good candidate for breeding interesting things. I agree with you 100% on the proper disposition of 'good red salad tomato' - it's all about the dressing so bring em on.
Hard to believe I haven't had time to post pics of the breeding projects from 2021 yet, but hey, February's coming.
It's too bad you don't like blacks, but I do have a bunch of other projects in the works, and you can take your pick, but they're in earlier stages.
I have a gorgeous and delicious early determinate pink that was not quite 100% stable this year, expecting stability in 2022 (again!) at F8.
But... it is actually a gf, that ripens dark pink. Does that violate the rule of blacks?

In a thread the other day, I mentioned that "dark pink" is my favorite color. To me, this means a dark red interior with clear skin.

Any red interior with green flesh on the perimeter and/or green gel, I consider "black". I'll keep trialing a few, here and there. While I'm not sure, I believe it's the ones with the green gel that I find the most revolting. I don't know if clear or yellow skin has anything to do with my liking (rare ), or not liking dark tomatoes.

Mwahahaha.... green gel it is, then.

Not all that experienced, but I look at the days listed to fruit as a guesstimate more than anything else. There are so many factors involved that can affect the fruit set and days to ripening.

way back in 2002 I was interested in Growing Degree Days ..... living in the PNW days to maturity noted for tomatoes were never accurate

here’s a part of my post from Tomatoville:

“And, for those that are interested, GDD as suggested in Territorial's 2002 catalog:

Ultra-Early: 1100 heat units (=GDD)
Extra-Early: about 1300 heat units
Early: up to 1500 heat units”

the old link worked, but has been updated .. I originally used corn as I read it was similar to tomatoes ..... but now there are even specific tomatoes added:

http://uspest.org/cgi-bin/ddmodel.us

Glenn Drowns also had a terric section on sweet potatoes and heat units on his site. Very good.

I don't pay too much attention to days to maturity because there are just too many factors involved. Temperature is a main one. If I had never grown any late tomatoes then I would have missed out a some of my favorites. I find that the late tomatoes just are not so late and are still very productive for me as well often going strong until frost takes them out. While I don't grown many so called 'late' tomatoes (90 days and over) I do grow a few. This past year all of my tomatoes were late due to the very hot summer. One just never knows...

Labradors wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:32 am I won't grow late varieties because they are flourishing when the first frost hits and it's very discouraging.

How about this? I grew Juni last summer (as an experiment because I didn't believe that it could be all THAT early). 72 days from sowing the seed to the first ripe 'mater.

Linda

That's a good bit earlier than anything I've ever seen! What did you think of the fruit? Did you plant early or later on?

Bower wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 2:54 pm

Tormato wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:47 am

Bower wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:24 am It does sound like Cole would be a good candidate for breeding interesting things. I agree with you 100% on the proper disposition of 'good red salad tomato' - it's all about the dressing so bring em on.
Hard to believe I haven't had time to post pics of the breeding projects from 2021 yet, but hey, February's coming.
It's too bad you don't like blacks, but I do have a bunch of other projects in the works, and you can take your pick, but they're in earlier stages.
I have a gorgeous and delicious early determinate pink that was not quite 100% stable this year, expecting stability in 2022 (again!) at F8.
But... it is actually a gf, that ripens dark pink. Does that violate the rule of blacks?

In a thread the other day, I mentioned that "dark pink" is my favorite color. To me, this means a dark red interior with clear skin.

Any red interior with green flesh on the perimeter and/or green gel, I consider "black". I'll keep trialing a few, here and there. While I'm not sure, I believe it's the ones with the green gel that I find the most revolting. I don't know if clear or yellow skin has anything to do with my liking (rare ), or not liking dark tomatoes.

Mwahahaha.... green gel it is, then.
SkipperF7-2021-606.JPG

I'll skip Skipper. That thing is basically all green gel.

Labradors wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:32 am I won't grow late varieties because they are flourishing when the first frost hits and it's very discouraging.

How about this? I grew Juni last summer (as an experiment because I didn't believe that it could be all THAT early). 72 days from sowing the seed to the first ripe 'mater.

Linda

Your Juni, 72 days from sowing, came in one day earlier than my Cole, at 73 days from sowing. It would be nice if I could trial them in a side-by-side. Now, just where could I find some seeds?

Juni was grown last year as an afterthought when I realized that I could put a hanging basket on the chicken coop extension. I planted the seeds rather late and, by the time it fruited, there was way too much competition from the great-tasting varieties. However, because Juni is so early, I'm growing a few plants here on the windowsill, and have small fruit on them already (some are half the size of a cherry tomato). These were sown on Oct 20th.

Tormato, I'd be delighted to send you the rest of the small packet that I brought here with me so that you can compare Juni to Cole. The red fruit are saladette-size. Here is a link: https://ohioheirloomseeds.com/products/ ... mato-seeds

Bower, I'd be happy to send you some seeds in the spring if you'd like .

Linda