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Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:42 pm
by Doffer
How can you tell from seedlings whether you are dealing with an indeterminate or determinate tomato?
Or when and how can you determine whether a tomato is an indeterminate or determinate tomato?
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:22 pm
by Shule
As far as I know, you can't tell just by looking at seedlings, but when they're older, if each branch tends to end with flowers, then it's supposed to be determinate. If each branch keeps growing more leaves indefinitely, then it's indeterminate. So, determinates end up being bushy and smaller with lots of flowers, and indeterminates end up being long and viny (and they tend to fruit over a longer season).
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:50 pm
by Toomanymatoes
You can only tell after the flower clusters start to develop as @Shule mentioned.
That being said, all of my dwarf seedlings are definitely shorter than my other seedlings. So, for dwarfs, you can tell. At least, relatively.
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:02 am
by slugworth
and then there are semi-determinate.
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:11 am
by Doffer
slugworth wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:02 am
and then there are semi-determinate.
make it even more complicated.
But i assume determinate is a 3th gene and not combination from the genes determinate + indeterminate, because the F1 was indeterminate.
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 10:22 am
by slugworth
For even more hijinks you can top the determinate plants and clone them,or let the suckers grow big and use that as cloning materiel to get extra mileage out of the plants.My growing season is short so not really fun here but would be ideal for people with long growing seasons.
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:37 pm
by bower
For some reason I haven't been able to post my reply to this thread. Trying again!
Selecting for determinates is one of the hardest jobs, because it can be impossible to tell early on. Depending on the parents, the terminal cluster pattern can show up early but it can also show up very late. In crosses with Black Cherry for example, all of the F2 had the normal indeterminate pattern (3 leaves between clusters on the main stem) until they had made about seven clusters, then the terminal pattern showed up. I actually got the terminal pattern quicker on some of the side shoots, so that might be one way to make the call, but you're already well into your season's growth to get that.
Last year I had some success by potting the F2 into a slightly larger pot, about 3-4X the soil volume of a beer cup I think. They still got fairly tall before showing determinate or indet pattern, but I was happy to know which is which before potting up to 4-5 gallon size. I have not had success just leaving them in the solo cups, as they don't have enough resources to get to the pattern. But I'll be trying the intermediate pot size again this season, to see if I can ID the determinates that way with a smaller footprint than just potting them all up full size.
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:22 pm
by worth1
Bower wrote: ↑Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:37 pm
For some reason I haven't been able to post my reply to this thread. Trying again!
Selecting for determinates is one of the hardest jobs, because it can be impossible to tell early on. Depending on the parents, the terminal cluster pattern can show up early but it can also show up very late. In crosses with Black Cherry for example, all of the F2 had the normal indeterminate pattern (3 leaves between clusters on the main stem) until they had made about seven clusters, then the terminal pattern showed up. I actually got the terminal pattern quicker on some of the side shoots, so that might be one way to make the call, but you're already well into your season's growth to get that.
Last year I had some success by potting the F2 into a slightly larger pot, about 3-4X the soil volume of a beer cup I think. They still got fairly tall before showing determinate or indet pattern, but I was happy to know which is which before potting up to 4-5 gallon size. I have not had success just leaving them in the solo cups, as they don't have enough resources to get to the pattern. But I'll be trying the intermediate pot size again this season, to see if I can ID the determinates that way with a smaller footprint than just potting them all up full size.
If it won't post remember to go to advanced or what it is.
The other thing I do is copy everything and keep it.
That way I can come back later and it will post as normal.
Very aggravating to have a long post vanish before your eyes.
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:40 pm
by slugworth
I avoided growing determinate all my life but started recently due to the short growing season hurricane related.
One year the silvery fir only had 5 or 6 tomatoes on it.
Fisherman would say didn't even get my bait back.
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:45 pm
by worth1
So true.
Where I live in Texas determinate produces way more bang for the buck.
Yes some of the others are to die for but really?
One or two good tomatoes per plant.
Not worth it.
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2022 5:54 pm
by slugworth
the semi determinate will produce in flushes-a batch then nothing.
Then another batch.
Feast or famine.
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 7:12 pm
by Shule
@slugworth
I think it depends on the variety. Some, like Roma can produce from July to October+, steadily, and increasingly, like an indeterminate (except heavier, on average, with a smaller plant).
Re: Determining indeterminate or determine
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:09 pm
by slugworth
I am trying ace 55 this year,a determinate.
I just hope I have more than 6 tomatoes per plant.
The silvery fir had x amount of blossoms and that was it.
I can't have blossoms close to the ground or vermin take bites out of the tomatoes.
I may have to pluck until the plants gets big.
Loves me, loves me not.