Moving from Fluorescents to Leds

[Plantaholic12]

Two springs ago my Mantis Tiller threw me down on my patio and tore my right rotator cuff and messed up my right sacroilliac joint.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
So when I set up my seed farm

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I learned I could no longer adjust my lights...couldn't lift with my right shoulder.

I knew I'd have to move to Leds eventually, as mother Gov't said so, so I got some shop Leds that fit the seed farm and tried them after a spring of pain lifting the old lights.
Planted marigolds ( go to plants for experimenting...three day germination) and got squat plants which died...
I started searching for "distance from plants" information and got an opinion per source. Three inches to fifteen inches. Move the light to don't move the light. Just like making bread, many experts but no Source.

So I got some full spectrum grow lights from Barinna and set up in January for the 2023 season. I usually start tomatos in March for my usual May 15 plant out. The experiments in January were marigolds, alyssum, bell peppers and tomatos.
I used the 2 inch spacing from the old tubes and the seeds all showed up. I lowered the plants to 6 inches and then to 10 inches as time went on.
The marigolds and alyssums seemed to be fine...even waited for May transplanting. The bell peppers slowly grew and eventually gave us the usual good crop which we have harvested all summer.
The tomatoes turned white. Didn't die but didn't grow. I had mixed the shop and full spectrum lights so removed the shop lights and tried another batch of seeds at 10 inches. I got one morgage lifter. It is next to the patio. Eight feet tall ( normal for my tomato plants ) and we've gotten one tomato.

I went into the garden center world in May and got tomato plants. A chocolate cherry, a black krim,a pink brandywine. a german johnson, a cherokee purple and a ( generic)Big Beef. I felt blessed to find any heirloom type plants. We have plenty of tomatos.

I need successful seed starting experience with led lights. I use four foot fixtures. I use heat mats. I have ventilation. I use timers. I line my seed farm with mylar ( so I have reflective walls ).

Kindly help the ol Hippie out.

Thanks in advance,

Tom

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[pepperhead212]

I am slowly switching to LED from T8s - meaning, as they break down or burn out, I replace with LED! At first, the output wasn't as high, but now it's even higher in equivalent LED bulbs, and similar wattage fixtures. The ones over the hydroponics, and the ones over the seed starting areas are all I have, and none are on now, but may have a few, soon. The cheap Harbor Freight 60w, 5,000k fixtures do as well as 2 T8 bulbs, or almost as well as one T5, in my experience. And I let things get very close, sometimes touching, but I try to prevent that! I don't know what would have done that to your tomatoes, unless the lights are much higher output than mine, but it doesn't sound like it's that, since other things aren't getting burned. And I think it's more what I start them in, but the tomatoes I start on 4-1, were over-ready to go out by 5-7 (when I could finally plant them!), so this year I am starting on maybe 4-7. And I don't use heat mats on my tomatoes, but I do them in my house. Peppers get heat, for starting, but that's in my kitchen.

[Cole_Robbie]

Most people seem to overdo it with intensity when they are new to led. Distance from the light depends on the light. Higher end lights come with a "ppfd chart" that tells you the coverage and light intensity at various distances. There are also free light meter apps for smart phones. The apps tend to give a little too high of a reading, but they are popular because a real par meter is $400 or so.

[bower]

Tomatoes under LED's is often a problem because of the spectrum. I know, they're calling your lights 'full spectrum' but if there's no IR (infrared) and UV, tomatoes - especially some varieties - will not tolerate it. They get edema/intumescence very easily.
Also, what passes for "full spectrum" is not really very close to natural light.
The issue is that LED's have a very narrow band. So if you have rows and rows of a single wavelength light, and then you add a few narrow band bulbs from either end of the spectrum, it still is nowhere close to natural light.
(Also noted, questions raised about what this is doing to our eyes. Some LED setups are downright dangerous, eye protection required.)

I had exactly the same experience growing greens under a shoplight as the marigolds you described. Squat plants, they don't reach for the light but instead shrink away from it. Different plants have different tolerance. It's okay for my bok choy to be a little squat. Lettuce seems to like it regardless. And so on. But the squatting will start up whenever they get big enough to be too close. I even saw the same thing with the shoplight set up in a window, so with natural light added. It's fine for starts of greens. But I haven't found an LED yet that I felt confident to use for tomatoes in a small confined space.
I think LED's with extra dabs of light from parts of the spectrum are doing the job in setups where the whole room (or greenhouse) is lit with powerful gear. This means you need to wear the hat and sunglasses when you go to visit the plants.
Possibly the small 'tent' idea is workable if your light is 4 ft or more from the seedlings and just powerful enough.
Still I see every year, people with LED setups report mysterious problems which turn out to be edema/intumescence and/or squatting, so maybe this problem is not really solved as yet.

[CrazyAboutOrchids]

I made the switch from T-8's to LED this season. I went with Spider Farmer SF600's. https://www.spider-farmer.com/products/ ... row-light/ I have 2 shelves in my basement; used to use 4 double shop lights with one daylight tube and one grow tube for a total of 4 bulbs per shelf so was running 160W per shelf - LED is 74W. We got solar in 2022 so we're always trying to stay within the parameters of our roof while saving energy credits to cover the winter months.

I start lettuce early, then tomatoes, peppers, eggplants, then later on I start squash and have started beans but did not this year. I start seeds on my dryer on a mat and then move to my basement once I pot up. I used Spider Farmers seed starting mat for the first time this year after using a heating pad for the last 15 or so - was super pleased. Had a sensor that goes in the seed starting tray and adjusts the temp based on it. Very happy with this purchase as well.

So my lights.... VERY happy. It is an adjustment though. While the peppers and eggplant did not mind when I had the lights down touching as I used to before, the tomatoes got a tad crispy. Caught early, I adjusted and they recuperated. Going forward, I'll keep on separate shelves. No heat whatsoever, so I didn't run a fan as much. This year, I'll put the fan on the timer with the lights. One thing I felt, and maybe it was my imagination, but the plants adjusted so easy to being outdoors this year. First few days, I kept forgetting about them and they spent FAR too much time outside but they weren't fizzed by it at all it seemed other than day 1 when it was a bit too breezy for their first day out. I could easily pop them outside, bring them in, without ill effects sighted.

I had amazing luck with my LED lights. I had kept my shop light setup 'just in case' but don't feel I need it. I am very happy with my purchase and my choice of Spider Farmer SF600. There is another thread here with some others who tried LED lights this season - pics of my set up are in that thread. viewtopic.php?p=97304&hilit=LED+lights#p97304 and then this thread warning against LEDs viewtopic.php?t=4424&hilit=LED+lights

[Plantaholic12]

Thanks for the detailed replies! I thought I'd googled everywhere...met the Dali Lama...
Details might help if anyone else chimes in:
Barrina 4FT T8 Plant Grow Light, 252W(6 x 42W, 1400W Equivalent), Full Spectrum, LED Growing Lamp Fixture for Indoor Plant Growing, Pinkish White, 6-Pack
I will visit the Spider Farmer site after watering and coffee chores.

Tom

[Plantaholic12]

More on the lights I have:

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I'm working on the "too close" idea for next spring.

[Cole_Robbie]

More on the lights I have:

e94782cb-b982-47c8-acc7-57e5f58d1d3c.__CR0,0,300,300_PT0_SX300_V1___.jpg

I'm working on the "too close" idea for next spring.

Here is their ppfd info

71nZhUcDZ5L._AC_SL1500_1024x1024.jpg

[AKgardener]

I have a ton of grow lights different brands and size I got these because well I like trying out new stuff to see what works best and can less light still do well and yes it can I’ll gather my list of lights and Whst I’ve noticed so far

I have 3 root farms 45 led lights I like them a lot this is how I start my seeds my lights heat my shelf above so I don’t need a mat they are strong so don’t put them to close but mine so far love them and grow strong,
DOMMIA Grow Lights for Indoor Plants, 20W Full I got these ones off of Amazon I grew my bell peppers and cucumbers under these all winter it was shocking how well they did I just did 4 panels on each rack ajusted the rack as needed but again it worked great for m3
I have Walmart grow lights 2 on each rack and my bok Chou and herbs love it .I have 2 spider farmers 1000 very strong light you need to keep it at a good distance I’m still figuring that out. My husband just got me new lights from Lowe’s called boost lighting full spectrum led grow lights I’m trying them out this winter.I also got other grow lights with the fans but they keep tripping things out so need to add more power to the room. Sorry for the long post but all my lights have done well we just need to figure out the height and so on it’s all about trial and error I’m still figuring it out but I’m doing a mater experiment this winter under all grow lights with different pots and fertilizer..

[pepperhead212]

Here's an example of how well my tomatoes did, under the LED this spring. They were like this in just 20 days, which is why I said I was going to make my start time a little later.

[loulac]

Here's an example of how well my tomatoes did, under the LED this spring. They were like this in just 20 days, which is why I said I was going to make my start time a little later.

The growth is impressive in such short time. Could we have details about the temperature ? is it constant or lowered when germination ends ?
Thanks

[pepperhead212]

@loulac Those tomatoes are only kept at room temp - 65-67°, and this April wasn't warmer than usual - only got in the low 70s a few times. A few years ago, I had an incredibly warm April, which is why I moved the start time to 4-6, instead of 4-1. And nothing special in the soil or fertilizer - I make my own (after hearing the problems many have had with commercial seed starters) with just peat and some coir (no special %, just whatever coir I have leftover from my hydroponics), maybe 10% worm castings, and 20% perlite, and some micorrhyzae (I think since I have been using this, things may have speeded up). And about every 3rd watering I put about 1/4 tsp of the hydroponics nutrients (I think it's Maxigro green).

[loulac]

Big thanks. An example to follow.

[JRinPA]

I was happy with my "transition" from T5 to LED shop lights until late this spring. I am going to try mix in a few T8s for next spring. The problems I had was with tomatoes and perhaps purple color on sweet potatoes.

[Paulf]

I am also transitioning. About half the seedlings were under LEDs and the other half under 20 year old shop lights (new bulbs a few years old). The third half,...no that's for Yogi. Next year there will have to more and better attention paid to any differences. None were noticed last year.

[bower]

Well you guys are giving me hope that distance - and a 'full spectrum' LED light - will do the trick.
@pepperhead212 how high were your LED lights above the tomato plants, assuming you moved them up as the plants got bigger did you keep that the same? (I just found the post where you said they were nearly touching, but did you keep them at that height with no problems? What height were you aiming for? )

[pepperhead212]

@bower I just try to keep them about 2" below the lights - easy at first, putting them on a high box or boxes, then start moving it down, with shorter boxes, Styrofoam spacers, etc. Peppers don't grow as fast as the tomatoes, so those rarely touch the lights, but the tomatoes have to be watched closely - just a little while on the lights won't hurt, so I check them morning and night.

[CrazyAboutOrchids]

The Spider Farmer LEDs that I bought have adjustable hangars on them so I have them dropped down for tomato seedlings but not touching like I did with the T-8's. This upcoming season, I will put peppers and eggplants on one shelf and tomatoes on the other. As Pepperhead noted, the peppers (and my eggplants) grow slower but they also are not as fizzed by the close light.

[bower]

Hmmm I also suspect that moisture management at the somewhat higher temperature than mine is also easier...
The old school habit of letting them dry out before watering was part of the LED catastrophe a couple years ago.
My temperature is probably closer to 60F, so water uptake can be slow in the seedlling season.

[JRinPA]

Forget these light problems, just use mirrors like tom cruise and mia sara did in the 80s. If you banish Tim Curry from your basement, all the better.