Excellent volunteer pink cherry - advice?

[Seven Bends]

This year I was very fortunate to have an excellent volunteer pink cherry tomato plant appear in my garden. I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on what it could be, and I'd appreciate any advice about how to try to save it/grow it out in future years. Also, if anyone is interesting in growing seeds from these tomatoes, they'll be sent to the MMMM (experimental category, I guess).

It's a medium to large cherry with somewhat variable size, from about Sungold size to maybe 50% larger. Size was larger early in the year but always was cherry-size, not saladette size. I have a couple of size comparison pics with Sungold below. Shape usually was roundish, but early in the year they were somewhat oval and sometimes had a small nipple on the end. Most of them later in the year were basically round. Epidermis is clear. They begin as light pink and ripen to very deep pink, almost red. The skin has noticeable speckles/sparkles in it if you look closely.

The flavor was great, truly special -- sweet, tangy and fruity. It was my favorite in the garden this year (Sungold usually is my favorite). It has thin skin, not chewy/annoying. Texture is juicy and normal, similar to Sungold -- not crispy, firm, dry, or mealy. The only drawback I found is that, like Sungold, it was prone to splitting if moisture was uneven -- rain showers or watering after a dry spell. If Sungold's splitting is a problem for you, you probably wouldn't like this one.

This volunteer appeared in a spot where a volunteer Orange Banana grew last year. The nearest other tomato plants to that spot last year were: Sun Sugar, Rosella, Nectar, and a small red cherry tomato that was supposed to be Sungold (Renee's Garden seed) but definitely wasn't. Isis Candy, Dikovinka, Sungold, Armenian, and Cornue des Andes also were nearby. I haven't ever grown a cherry tomato similar to this one before, so there's no obvious answer about what it is. Anyone have any thoughts? Nectar is a red hybrid cherry; could a pink cherry be an offspring of that? Could a pink cherry result from Sun Sugar or Sungold? Or is it more likely a bee cross than an offspring of one of the hybrids?

What should I do if I want to try to save this as a variety? How many plants would I need to grow to have a decent chance of getting something similar next year?
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This picture shows the size range and comparative size to Sungold in early/mid-season.
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Another size comparison; this shows one of the larger volunteer pink cherries vs. an average Sungold.
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One of the largest examples.
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Three of the largest; most were not this large, especially late in the season. Zoom in to see the speckles/sparkles.
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One of the more oval examples.

[FatBeeFarm]

What great fortune! I'd like to grow out a few of those for sure. Not sure how it got there, I'd guess a bee cross, but I'm no expert. It look similar to Sweet Treats or Sakura to me (ones I've grown), except the last photo looks like Sun Peach.

[rxkeith]

what i can tell you for sure, is that at least one of the parent tomatoes was a cherry.
i have grown out sun gold volunteers before, and nothing like what you have showed up.
if you have a bee cross pollination, if the other parent was also a cherry, i think you will have small sized
tomatoes in future generations. if the other parent was one of the big uns. you will start seeing different
sizes showing up as you grow out your f2, f3, f4 etc generations.

how many plants to grow?
what you currently have is an f1 hybrid. grow out as many f2 plants as you can. i would say 5 to 10 plants.
you will see a lot of variety. then, its a matter of chasing down the tomato you like the best and stabilizing it.


keith

[Whwoz]

And don't forget @Seven Bends , that if you don't get what you are looking for in the first F2 growout, you can always sow more F2 seed down the track for as long as you have it.

[rxkeith]

oh, another thing,

if the plant is still around, you can try taking cuttings, and root them, and keep them alive until next year.
i did that one year with alston everlasting. mice had eaten all the tomatoes of size, and it was the end of the year.
i was out of seeds, and cloning the plant was my only hope.


keith

[Shule]

I'm thinking maybe a cross, Dr. Carolyn Pink or Pink Ping Pong.

[Shule]

What did you grow last year?

[pondgardener]

oh, another thing,

if the plant is still around, you can try taking cuttings, and root them, and keep them alive until next year.
i did that one year with alston everlasting. mice had eaten all the tomatoes of size, and it was the end of the year.
i was out of seeds, and cloning the plant was my only hope.


keith

keith, what was your setup for keeping that tomato alive till the following spring?

[rxkeith]

set up? hah, there wasn't any.
i just had the rooted cutting in a smaller pot in a south facing window in the living room. as the plant
grew, i would take additional cuttings to keep it manageable. i ended up with about six plants by the time spring rolled around.
i might of had the last cuttings growing under grow lights because they were smaller. the original cutting was still alive, but not
good for much else. i wanted slow steady growth, not too fast though. no way i could have dealt with a full sized cherry tomato
plant in doors.


keith

[Seven Bends]

What great fortune! I'd like to grow out a few of those for sure. Not sure how it got there, I'd guess a bee cross, but I'm no expert. It look similar to Sweet Treats or Sakura to me (ones I've grown), except the last photo looks like Sun Peach.

You're right, they do look similar to Sweet Treats and Sunpeach! Sunpeach especially seems to have the same coloring and speckles. I haven't grown or tasted either of those varieties. From pictures, it looks like they grow in long trusses; this volunteer generally grew in groups of just two or three. Isis Candy last year grew similarly (groups of two or three, no long trusses) and was a similar size, but color and flavor were different.

If you'd like some seeds and won't be participating in the MMMM, PM me and I'll be happy to send some. I'd love to see what other people might get from it.

[Seven Bends]

what i can tell you for sure, is that at least one of the parent tomatoes was a cherry.
i have grown out sun gold volunteers before, and nothing like what you have showed up.
if you have a bee cross pollination, if the other parent was also a cherry, i think you will have small sized
tomatoes in future generations. if the other parent was one of the big uns. you will start seeing different
sizes showing up as you grow out your f2, f3, f4 etc generations.

how many plants to grow?
what you currently have is an f1 hybrid. grow out as many f2 plants as you can. i would say 5 to 10 plants.
you will see a lot of variety. then, its a matter of chasing down the tomato you like the best and stabilizing it.

keith

Thank you, Keith, very helpful. Also thank you for the suggestion to take cuttings. The plant was pretty far gone when I saw it yesterday, but there may be something still alive at the tips. That is, if we don't get frost tonight. I'll stop by the garden tomorrow to see if it's possible.

[Seven Bends]

And don't forget @Seven Bends , that if you don't get what you are looking for in the first F2 growout, you can always sow more F2 seed down the track for as long as you have it.

Good idea; I wasn't thinking along those lines but it makes perfect sense. With a little (bad) luck, a project like this can last a lifetime I guess. I saved probably 400 or more seeds, so there are plenty to play with, but unfortunately I tend to have a bit of a short attention span so who knows how far I'll get.

[bower]

If the cherry is a pink F1, both parents would have to be pink or have clear skin gene (which might be in another color tomato too)
As commented above, at least one parent is a cherry, because that locule number/size is dominant.
Clear skin is recessive, so you wouldn't expect a pink F1 from random crosses (unless there are lots of pink parents around).

Regardless of origins, the best plan is to grow at minimum half dozen, to have a reasonable expectation of seeing any recessive genes turn up (eg if a parent is black /gf or also to see a full Beta orange, if it's a sungold descendant). Six plants for a one in four chance is fairly good odds. Luck is always a factor but if luck is against you, you can grow 8 or a dozen and get no better results. So it's reasonable to expect to see something about the parentage with a half dozen. That's how I roll, anyway.

I keep seeing pinks turn up in my crosses where not expected. I wonder if it is a common mutation? Maybe this gene is unstable, or more so than most. Just speculating, but the real answers will be when you grow some of them out.

[Seven Bends]

I'm thinking maybe a cross, Dr. Carolyn Pink or Pink Ping Pong.

I haven't grown either of those, so I looked them up on Tatiana's. Dr. Carolyn Pink does look somewhat similar and seems to set fruit in the same way as this volunteer (not big trusses). I haven't grown Galina's or Dr. Carolyn (white/ivory) either, so I guess this volunteer probably isn't related to any of them, but it does make me wonder about something. I grew Super Snow White last year in the adjacent row, not too far up the row. If Galina's (yellow) could produce Dr. Carolyn (ivory/white) which then produced Dr. Carolyn Pink, maybe my volunteer came from Super Snow White. That plant was a monster that grew pretty far down the row along the ground, and the unharvested tomatoes rolled everywhere at the end of the season.

Pink Ping Pong seems less similar -- a good bit bigger, yellow shoulders, more irregular shape.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[Seven Bends]

What did you grow last year?

Last year in the spot where the volunteer is now, there was a volunteer Orange Banana plant, then some bean plants, then a huge Cornue des Andes plant. In the adjacent row to the north, directly across from Orange Banana, was Sun Sugar. Going up that row to the west from Sun Sugar were Rosella, Nectar Hybrid, Dikovinka, Super Snow White, Garnet, Dark Orange Muscat, and Golden Gem Hybrid. Across the aisle to the east from Orange Banana were Armenian, Oaxacan Jewel, a small red cherry that was supposed to be Sungold but wasn't, an actual Sungold, Isis Candy, Alice's Dream, and Ananas Noire. I had about a dozen other beefsteaks/slicers within say 10 yards of this spot, but the varieties I listed were the closest.

[Seven Bends]

If the cherry is a pink F1, both parents would have to be pink or have clear skin gene (which might be in another color tomato too)
As commented above, at least one parent is a cherry, because that locule number/size is dominant.
Clear skin is recessive, so you wouldn't expect a pink F1 from random crosses (unless there are lots of pink parents around).

Regardless of origins, the best plan is to grow at minimum half dozen, to have a reasonable expectation of seeing any recessive genes turn up (eg if a parent is black /gf or also to see a full Beta orange, if it's a sungold descendant). Six plants for a one in four chance is fairly good odds. Luck is always a factor but if luck is against you, you can grow 8 or a dozen and get no better results. So it's reasonable to expect to see something about the parentage with a half dozen. That's how I roll, anyway.

I keep seeing pinks turn up in my crosses where not expected. I wonder if it is a common mutation? Maybe this gene is unstable, or more so than most. Just speculating, but the real answers will be when you grow some of them out.

Thank you, @bower -- very helpful as always! The only pinks I grew last year were Rebel Yell, Blue Ridge Mountain, and Dr. Sud's Capon Bridge. They all were relatively far away, though the whole garden is only about 25 feet by 30 feet so nothing is really far. Rosella cherry and Dikovinka were nearby, but they're not really pink, are they?

Am I understanding the genetics correctly in thinking that the non-pink OPs (assuming they're uncrossed) would not be carrying a recessive pink gene, because if they were, they wouldn't be stable? But one of the hybrids I grew (for example, Nectar, which is red) could have a recessive pink gene? I'm sorry to ask such a stupid question, but if Nectar has a recessive pink gene, could it self-pollinate or cross with itself to produce a pink cherry tomato in the next generation?

In discussions I read about Dr. Carolyn Pink, people (including Carolyn Male, I think) mentioned Galina's and/or Dr. Carolyn (white) producing various unexpected colors in grow-outs, including pink. Would that be the type of mutation you mentioned? As I said above in my post to @Shule, I wonder if something similar could have happened with Super Snow White or possibly Isis Candy, which were nearby.

I guess I can plant 6-8 of these plants close together and just keep them long enough to get the first wave of ripe fruit, then clear out the space for late summer/fall crops.

In your experience of growing things like this out, how often do you have something serendipitously great in the first generation, but then nothing worth bothering with in the subsequent generations? Is that pretty common?

[bower]

You wouldn't expect the pink allele to be lurking in an OP red. OP's by normal standards are stable for major traits, so if pink was still present, they'd be turning up at the rate of approx one in four plants of the OP.
A hybrid red like Nectar could in principle have a pink parent, so yes that is possible, although perhaps less likely, just because on the industrial scale of breeding and seed production, two red parents reduces the chance of any off types slipping through. You could find out whether there is a pink parent there, by saving and growing out a half dozen F2 Nectar to look for a pink.
Super Snow White is where you have the clear skin allele. So that would be a good bet, for the cherry partner in the cross, based on your list of candidates. Rosella also has the 'pink' allele, it just happens to also have gf (green flesh) making it purple. So that is another good bet for a parent. And any of the pinks you mentioned could be involved, or it could be SSW x Rosella. A cross between those two would produce a rainbow of cherries, pink, yellow, white, purple, gwr are all possible, although you'd have to grow larger numbers to see all of those turn up.
Re: the taste genetics and descendants, you have to grow it to find out. It depends on the parents and how their taste profiles combined. Some parents seem to have dominant taste genetics, Black Cherry for example, where nearly all the offspring in any generation are tasty and similar, and the exception is the one that wasn't great. If the two parents have very divergent taste, you can get F2 and F3 or further generations where every tomato tastes very different from the others. You have to keep selecting the one you like best, but overall it's a fun experience because diverse tastes are nice, even if they might not be exactly what you aimed for.
I don't often judge taste on the F1, mainly because I'm usually breeding for non red tomatoes and most F1s are red, which has its own taste profile. If I find a tasty F2 that's the right color, that's the one I'll grow forward.
Also bear in mind that many of my crosses involved a parent for earliness or hardiness which might not be the best tasting. So I have had some F2 generations that weren't worth following up. They're all good for the sauce pot, is my attitude.
I have from time to time had an F2 or later generation, a plant pops up with really unique special taste, and which I've not been able to recapture in the subsequent grow out. It does happen, and you just have to love them while you have them, always save seeds from your favorites, and try for a repeat.
One additional thought is that, if you don't find the same fantastic flavor in the F2, you could always make a cross between the two parents, and grow the F1s for the same taste. Your F2, if they are all cherries, would narrow it down to the cherry parents.

[Seven Bends]

I have from time to time had an F2 or later generation, a plant pops up with really unique special taste, and which I've not been able to recapture in the subsequent grow out. It does happen, and you just have to love them while you have them

Worth keeping in mind about the good things in life in general, not just tomatoes!
Thanks for taking the time to explain some of the genetics and suggest how to move forward. This will help me a lot; I appreciate it.