From the very limited 7 varieties of tomatoes I have grown(Orange Hat, Jochalos, Vilma, Rosella Cherry, Orange Paruche, Micro-Tina, Joro F1), there's quite a diversity of flavors ranging from sweet, sour, umami, tropical, citrus, astringent, plum, vanilla, and so on. If you had to classify tomatoes varieties just by it's strongest consistent flavor characteristic, what would that list look like and what varieties would go under them?

I was wondering if there’s a way to have a genetic flavor palette with very distinct flavored varieties which could be mixed and matched together if they are crossed with each other.

Sweet would be at the top of the list. Others can decide the rest.

I'm curious as to whether you grow indoors in a controlled environment, or not.

Tormato wrote: ↑Thu Jul 04, 2024 8:20 pm I'm curious as to whether you grow indoors in a controlled environment, or not.

I exclusively grow tomatoes indoors in containers due to living in a complex that only gets 3 hours of direct sunlight per day(trees shade out the patio). I find it easier and faster to grow them inside my apartment, as I can intensively control the environment and allow the fruits to ripen without worrying about pests.

This is a great question, but the answer would fill a book!
Tomato flavor seems almost unlimited, with a full range of 'fruity' tastes including the melons, plus floral, spicy, etc.
Sweetness is said to enhance other flavors, so sweeter selections are a plus, in general.
Tanginess is another flavor note that appears to be independent of the above, so can be layered in.
Umami and the 'typical tomato' flavor is also an independent note that can be present, absent, or combined with any of the above.

In my experience, crosses between very divergent taste profile tomatoes can produce the wildest spectrum of flavor combinations, but these also may continue to segregate right up to F7.
Sweetness in early generations is usually a keeper trait down the line. Sometimes you get a taste profile in early generations which seems mainly dominant and is fairly consistent in all descendants, with the exception of occasional outliers of course. So for many crosses, the first couple of generations are most exciting in terms of flavor selection.

bower wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 7:46 am This is a great question, but the answer would fill a book!
Tomato flavor seems almost unlimited, with a full range of 'fruity' tastes including the melons, plus floral, spicy, etc.
Sweetness is said to enhance other flavors, so sweeter selections are a plus, in general.
Tanginess is another flavor note that appears to be independent of the above, so can be layered in.
Umami and the 'typical tomato' flavor is also an independent note that can be present, absent, or combined with any of the above.

In my experience, crosses between very divergent taste profile tomatoes can produce the wildest spectrum of flavor combinations, but these also may continue to segregate right up to F7.
Sweetness in early generations is usually a keeper trait down the line. Sometimes you get a taste profile in early generations which seems mainly dominant and is fairly consistent in all descendants, with the exception of occasional outliers of course. So for many crosses, the first couple of generations are most exciting in terms of flavor selection.

Is green gel classified as a flavor note?

I’m not sure the descriptors of flavor ever do the best of the tomatoes complete justice.

Some individual tomatoes are so good that I’m sad when there’s nothing remaining.

Has anyone on TJ or any other tomato forum ever put together a flavor wheel for tomatoes?

Here’s an example of a flavor wheel for whiskey.

https://www.whiskeymasters.org/whisky-tasting-wheel

Or honey

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/20 ... el-that-is

https://workingfood.org/the-evvy-tomato-project/ the first photo of the tomato flavor wheel is from this link here.

Tormato wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:03 am
Is green gel classified as a flavor note?

If you taste with your eyes, probably....

bower wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 12:14 pm

Tormato wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:03 am
Is green gel classified as a flavor note?

If you taste with your eyes, probably....

Blindfolded in a cave at midnight, and...I...know.

So what’s the story on green gel? I’ve seen green gel in tomatoes, but haven’t paid much attention to it.

Tormato wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 11:14 am https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/pl ... 44113/full

Very interesting article with tons of references. One particular reference I found actually measured the VOCs and sugar content in what they classified as "Heirloom Tomatoes".
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fu ... 12)00408-3

I've compiled the data here. Table S2 has rankings in taste panels:


I didn't think that supermarket tomatoes would be rated that high in the list.

KaguyaCloud wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:53 pm

Tormato wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 11:14 am https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/pl ... 44113/full

Very interesting article with tons of references. One particular reference I found actually measured the VOCs and sugar content in what they classified as "Heirloom Tomatoes".
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fu ... 12)00408-3

I've compiled the data here. Table S2 has rankings in taste panels:


I didn't think that supermarket tomatoes would be rated that high in the list.

Interesting. Parsing anything of value from that article is beyond me. Ailsa Craig showed up a couple of times depending on the panel. High or low, where, which, I know not?

If something with the name of cherry roma is at the top of the flavor list, I will question the list.

karstopography wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 9:11 pm Interesting. Parsing anything of value from that article is beyond me. Ailsa Craig showed up a couple of times depending on the panel. High or low, where, which, I know not?

If something with the name of cherry roma is at the top of the flavor list, I will question the list.

I do question the panels and people they have used to judge all of those varieties. But what I'm really interested is the sugar and VOC concentrations, as those are the first objective analysis of flavor compounds that we've seen so far. I can order them by most to least concentration individually and by the most abundant.

To my tastes, there are no cherry tomatoes that are in the league of beefsteak types. Might as well be apples and oranges.

There are folks that absolutely love cherry tomatoes. Good for them.

I wish any comparison of tomatoes would automatically divide cherry tomatoes from the others.

Texturally, cherry tomatoes are far inferior to my tastes to beefsteak tomatoes. Cherry tomatoes are sacks of seeds and gel that squirt when masticated.

That’s the first problem I see with the table shared.

The major thing I see as an issue is this statement in the research article. I wonder who chose those tomato cultivars.

Despite its popularity and important contribution to human nutrition, the commercially produced tomato is widely viewed as having poor taste, and its flavor is a major source of consumer dissatisfaction. In contrast, there is a public perception that the term “heirloom” indicates great taste. Our results indicate that this is not always the case. Some heirlooms received liking scores well below those of supermarket-purchased tomatoes (Table S2). Our results with respect to supermarket tomatoes present an interesting contrast. They were highly variable even within a single season, possibly reflecting the variation in harvest, handling, and storage among different lots.

Second, the panelists skew towards a demographic not reflective of the population. On top of that, each person only reviewed only 4-6 tomato varieties at a time.

A group of 170 tomato consumers (64 male, 106 female) were recruited to evaluate all of the varieties. Panelists were between the ages of 18 and 78, with a median age of 22. Panelists self-classified themselves as 101 White/Caucasian, 14 Black/African American, 32 Asian/Pacific, and 25 Other. An average of 85 (range of 66–95) of these panelists evaluated between four and six varieties in a session.

How’s the quality of the produce from Gainesville, FL supermarkets compare to other supermarkets? There’s not too much detail on how the crops were grown and how they determined the endpoint of ripeness for those multitudes of heirloom tomatoes:

Plants were grown in the field at the University of Florida North Florida Research and Education Center–Suwannee Valley in the spring or fall seasons or in Horticultural Sciences greenhouses on the University of Florida campus in Gainesville, FL. Supermarket tomatoes were obtained from a local supermarket in Gainesville, FL.

KaguyaCloud wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 8:53 pm

Tormato wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 11:14 am https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/pl ... 44113/full

Very interesting article with tons of references. One particular reference I found actually measured the VOCs and sugar content in what they classified as "Heirloom Tomatoes".
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fu ... 12)00408-3

I've compiled the data here. Table S2 has rankings in taste panels:


I didn't think that supermarket tomatoes would be rated that high in the list.

I now feel somewhat justified as the #1 disliker, here, of dark tomatoes, seeing Nyagous, Black and Japanese Black Trifele down near the bottom of the list, as far as panelists overall liking of varieties. Cherokee Purple is also low on the list, a rare dark tomato that I actually like, although it wouldn't crack my top 100 list of about 2,000 "varieties" trialed. There appears to be a correlation between overall liking and texture liking. Perhaps that is why CP gets a low rating. I agree that it has poor texture, being too soft for my liking. But, I don't care what the texture of a tomato is, if it has knee-buckling flavor.

I apologize for sending out Crimson Sprinter seeds in the MMMM swap, unaware of its reputation as shown in that chart.

The key to supermarket tomatoes, to me, is to wait until they are very slightly overripe. I have no idea what varieties they are, but they are round, red, and about 6 to 8 ounces.

And, my local WalMart has a constant supply of large red tomatoes in a large open bin, for $1.98/lb. For some unknown reason, the best tasting ones, to me, are the largest ones, close to a pound each, that are "boat-shaped" rather than flattened globes.

karstopography wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 6:19 pm So what’s the story on green gel? I’ve seen green gel in tomatoes, but haven’t paid much attention to it.

Just me, and my very limited observation of colors, of the skin and gel, of dark tomatoes. I don't grow enough of them to verify my findings, findings that are limited to memory, rather than recorded writings. But, I generally find green-gelled, yellow-skinned dark tomatoes to have a special place st the top of my hideous scale for tomato varieties.

I may be the only one, here, who gets into the perceived aspects of green gel.

I believe Bower understands me, perfectly.

It seems that the testers prefer flavours with more tartness than sweetness and I'm guessing that most people do.

I would have put Maglia Rosa and Brandywine at the top of the list, but then I prefer flavours with sweetness and complexity.

It seems that the testers prefer flavours with more tartness than sweetness and I'm guessing that most people do.

I would have put Maglia Rosa and Brandywine at the top of the list, but then I prefer flavours with sweetness and complexity.

karstopography wrote: ↑Fri Jul 05, 2024 9:11 pm If something with the name of cherry roma is at the top of the flavor list, I will question the list.

Interesting enough, Cherry Roma seems to actually be a tomato variety from 1999 according to Tatiana’s tomato base:
https://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Cherry_Roma

It also seems to have won quite a number of taste competitions. It was first place in 2013 and second place in 2016 for a taste competition in Seed Savers Exchange. Texture seems crunchy with a higher meat to gel ratio compared to standard cherry tomatoes. Now I’m curious to know how tasty it is.

Do beefsteaks have about the same amount of flavor variation compared to cherry types? It’s possible they tried selecting towards the widest possible range of volatile compounds.