Some seed companies, such as Johnny's, Baker Creek, Ecoseedbank (these I am familiar with) + probably others, stamp the date of the seeds on their package, and I assume they are telling the truth. However, some smaller companies' seed packages have no such info.

Is there a possibility that they are selling old seeds?

While I'm here: is anyone else here old enough to remember when most of Johnny's seeds were open pollinated? Did they decide to cater to market gardeners when the employees took over the company, or what. I am just curious. I got their catalogue a little while ago and at a glance, I'd say that 95% of their seeds, even a lot of their flowers, are F1 hybrids. I would rather buy open pollinated so I could save the seeds.

Interesting subject.

I ordered tomato seeds late in 2024 from Delectation of Tomatoes. First of all, the seeds from them have germinated great, so absolutely no complaints on that point. But, there are some stickers applied to the seed envelopes with information about the tomato and there’s a date printed there, but the date ranges are insane, like one was from 2013. So I’m taking the date on the envelope to mean when they, DofT, originally wrote up the description and NOT the date the seeds were harvested/packaged. There’s an outer larger envelope and then inside another smaller package, perhaps made of wax paper, that contains the seeds. Maybe I missed seeing the date on all that packaging. Anyway, the seeds came up great so wonderful, I’m happy.

I’ve not (that I recall) ever ordering anything from Johnny’s. I do, at times, look at their online catalog and I have been under the impression they were a vendor that focused on expensive hybrid seeds. For tomatoes, I’m currently growing only OP types so I tend to look at vendors that sell more of those.

I only started ordering from Johnny’s because someone recommended their Salanova lettuces to me. We split an order to save on shipping and I must admit I have been very satisfied with what we ordered. Those lettuces are amazing and I will plant them again. I too plant basically only OP tomatoes too so wouldn’t tend to order from them. But I am not fussy about basil, eggplant, squash, cucumbers, beans or squash when I get a good product. They are pricey but at my age I don’t have that many more gardening years so just want to enjoy a good product while I can.

WRT small companies with large collections of OP tomato seeds, I wouldn't forget the possibility of freezer storage.
I'm not even sure how much this may be the rule for larger companies, that bulk seeds are in long term cold storage, and then they take some out to put in envelopes with labels like "packed for 2024" or maybe not dated.
With tomato seeds, there's always the possibility of a long shelf life anyway, more so than some others. But I really had to wonder what's up with commercial lettuce seeds, that germinate fine in the year you buy them and then the following year are dead as a doornail. My saved lettuce seed keeps going for at least 4 years before showing signs of being too old.

Gardadore wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:54 am I only started ordering from Johnny’s because someone recommended their Salanova lettuces to me. We split an order to save on shipping and I must admit I have been very satisfied with what we ordered. Those lettuces are amazing and I will plant them again. I too plant basically only OP tomatoes too so wouldn’t tend to order from them. But I am not fussy about basil, eggplant, squash, cucumbers, beans or squash when I get a good product. They are pricey but at my age I don’t have that many more gardening years so just want to enjoy a good product while I can.

What makes those Salanova lettuce varieties worth the considerable extra expense for the seeds? 25 pelleted seeds for $7.15 plus shipping. How are these lettuces superior to OP lettuces where the seeds cost many multiples less per seed? I’m not necessarily against buying relatively expensive seeds, but what advantages come with this additional cost?

@BlackKrim When I first started gardening I bought a lot of my seeds from Johnny's Seeds. They started breeding some of their own F1 hybrids a few years before they became employee owned. My guess is that they learned that they can charge more for the hybrids than the OP's. It seems that now they are buying F1's in bulk and can resale them for a profit. This way they don't have to grow them and take up field space or do the work. The problem is that now their prices have gone up on the OP's too. Yes there is a discount for the commercial growers, it is cheaper and less time consuming to fill one large order rather than 50 small ones. They have changed significantly.

Here is a list of vendors that have been member approved should you like to look at other vendors. viewtopic.php?t=390

karstopography wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 7:17 am I ordered tomato seeds late in 2024 from Delectation of Tomatoes. First of all, the seeds from them have germinated great, so absolutely no complaints on that point. But, there are some stickers applied to the seed envelopes with information about the tomato and there’s a date printed there, but the date ranges are insane, like one was from 2013. So I’m taking the date on the envelope to mean when they, DofT, originally wrote up the description and NOT the date the seeds were harvested/packaged. There’s an outer larger envelope and then inside another smaller package, perhaps made of wax paper, that contains the seeds. Maybe I missed seeing the date on all that packaging. Anyway, the seeds came up great so wonderful, I’m happy.

See this blog post on the Delectation of Tomatoes website: https://delectationoftomatoes.wordpress ... and-rates/
He says that the date on his seed packs is the date he actually harvested the tomato from which the seeds came. He says the harvest date and the weight of the tomato (also printed on the label) constitutes his batch tracking system -- or at any rate, it did at the time of that blog post. I suppose it's possible his processes have changed since then, but if your seed label looks like the one in his picture, that's probably what the date means.

From that blog post and some other discussions on his website, I get the impression that some of his seeds can be pretty old, but he stores them in a cool location (basement) and conducts germination testing to try to insure quality. He also has a money-back guarantee, and of course his prices are very reasonable to begin with.

He points out that when other seed companies put "packed for 2024" or whatever on their packs, it doesn't mean the seeds were produced in 2024, just that that's the year the seeds were put in the retail envelope. He says sometimes the seed harvest date can be years earlier than the date on the package from those companies.

I'm a happy Harris Seeds customer, but I did get a bit annoyed and requested a refund this year when they sent me pepper seeds that were at least several years old. Their system is they put a "packed for" date on the package, and then if the packets are still around in subsequent years, they do germination testing and put a sticker with the germination percentage on the packet. Of course, they put the sticker over top of the "packed for" date so you can't see it. Two of the packs had several layers of stickers, so I peeled them off out of curiosity and wasn't happy with the original date on the package, especially since even that date doesn't mean harvest date.

That said, I've had very good to excellent germination from Harris's seeds in the past, and arguably their method is just more transparent than some of the other companies. If they had repackaged the seeds in a new envelope with a "packed for 2024" date on it like many companies presumably do, I never would have known the seeds were older and wouldn't have complained. Knowing the germination percentages as of a certain date is helpful.

Dale at Delectation of Tomatoes is probably the most honest and open seed seller I have ever dealt with. I do know several seed collectors and sellers that have quit selling have donated their stock to him which accounts for the rather wide range of dates on the seed packages. With Dale you know up front what you are getting. As Karsto... said above the germination is generally very good even with some of the older seed dates. As far back as Carolyn and Tatiana, he took their seeds to distribute. I even sent a pile once. As a one man shop, Dale is among the best and certainly has the largest inventory of any seller.

@Bower. But I really had to wonder what's up with commercial lettuce seeds, that germinate fine in the year you buy them and then the following year are dead as a doornail. My saved lettuce seed keeps going for at least 4 years before showing signs of being too old.

No kidding. I too was shocked when my lettuce mix from Baker Creek did not seem to last. But read on: I have a book by Rob Johnston Jr on seed saving - "Growing Garden Seeds" (1983) - in which he says that lettuce seeds should be viable for 1-2 years with "no special storage conditions" and 3-4 years with consistently cool/dry conditions. There ya go, I guess. But strangely, I've kept other brands of lettuce (not Baker Creek) in a slightly cool place in the house and they just kept on going for years!! Who knows what is going on...

How are you storing your lettuce seeds that they kept going for at least 4 years? Any precious (rare-ish) seeds of any kind I keep in jars in the freezer. Thanks for replying.

@Karstopography. "25 pelleted seeds for $7.15 plus shipping."

I do not know if hybrid lettuce is any better than OP, but, I will happily pay more for pelleted lettuce (and other small) seeds even though we are far from well-off financially. I just love the darn things. No waste, no need to thin out. Indeed, when they make me Queen of the World, Law #1 will be: All Small Seeds to be Pelleted. Law #2 will be: all cookbooks to be ring-bound so they lie flat and don't come apart.

About toms now. Johnny's does have a small selection of old variety tomatoes, all well-known (to me anyway).

MissS wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 9:52 am @BlackKrim When I first started gardening I bought a lot of my seeds from Johnny's Seeds. They started breeding some of their own F1 hybrids a few years before they became employee owned. My guess is that they learned that they can charge more for the hybrids than the OP's. It seems that now they are buying F1's in bulk and can resale them for a profit. This way they don't have to grow them and take up field space or do the work. The problem is that now their prices have gone up on the OP's too. Yes there is a discount for the commercial growers, it is cheaper and less time consuming to fill one large order rather than 50 small ones. They have changed significantly.

Here is a list of vendors that have been member approved should you like to look at other vendors. viewtopic.php?t=390

Many thanks, MissS, for your info and that link. I kind of thought that Johnny's did their own hybridization as they are always boasting about their seed development program etc. and there are photos of their "trial" fields, so they must be doing something themselves anyway.

I started buying seeds from Johnny's when I was a mere girl and didn't know the first thing about growing. That was 1983. Somewhere in the mess I might still have the catalogue from that year. B&W if I remember right and little recipes at the bottom.

@Seven Bends.

Two of the packs had several layers of stickers, so I peeled them off out of curiosity and wasn't happy with the original date on the package, especially since even that date doesn't mean harvest date.

You sly devil! You know, you have got me going now. I am going to write to a few of the small "heirloom" seed sellers and ask them about their policy. Of course, they''ll lie if they have to, I guess. I always want to try new varieties of this and that and therefore we are dependent on them, aren't we. Some small companies (and Johnny's) put the germination rate on their pkgs, FWIW.

I am a licensed (in my state) small seed seller. I am required to print the year of sale on the package. When the year changes I must remove those items from sale.

I will use them in swaps, trades, etc. but I cannot legally sell them in my state. This is done to protect the consumer from purchasing old seed.

Each state has different requirements, and many seed sellers are not licensed. I hope this helps.

~ Sam

Homegrwoninillinois wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 2:10 pm I am a licensed (in my state) small seed seller. I am required to print the year of sale on the package. When the year changes I must remove those items from sale.

I will use them in swaps, trades, etc. but I cannot legally sell them in my state. This is done to protect the consumer from purchasing old seed.

Each state has different requirements, and many seed sellers are not licensed. I hope this helps.

~ Sam

Do we have you on the vendor list?

My impression of Johnny's, just from reading the tomato section of the catalog every year, is that they are catering to small-farm market growers. The tomatoes seem to offer a good balance between productivity, taste, plant health, and fruit appearance. As far as I know, they trial every variety at their farm in Maine.

So when I'm looking for tomato varieties to add to our annual master gardener seedling sale, I refer to Johnny's catalog. One variety that I added last year, Magic Bullet, was new at JSS last year, so I considered it "vetted," and it turned out to be a really good tomato in my climate as well. I've tried other OPs they offer (Valencia, Striped German, Black Krim, JBT, Pruden's Purple, Green Bee F1, Cherokee Green) and did not hear any "wow" feedback so didn't repeat them, even though I still grow some of them in my own garden. Green tomatoes never sell well, so I've learned to offer limited quantities, but I still do include at least one variety every year. We do offer Cherokee Purple, which performs so-so most years but great every so often. Indigo Cherry Drops and Pink Berkeley Tie-Dye sell out every year. I'm adding Blush this year. I'm actually surprised not to see some of Karen Olivier's varieties in their lineup, because some of the indeterminates have done so well in my challenging climate.

The reason I like the Salanova lettuce from Johnny’s is that almost all the pelleted seeds germinated and it was easy to control spacing so little waste. They grow very neatly so harvest is easy and clean. I don’t seem to be very good at growing lettuce from seed as something seems to eat them before they mature. I started the Salanova indoors and transplanted the seedlings outdoors into Earthboxes and in ground under covers. They were beautiful. Whether they are worth the extra cost is debatable but I was so happy with the results that I find it moot. The different Salanova varieties are beautiful and tasty. I love many other lettuce varieties as well but the Salanova performed the best for me last summer. Dependability is worth something to me as well.

@Gardadore certainly sounds reasonable to me. I “waste” a significant amount of lettuce seeds with overseeding. I do tend to use some of the thinnings.

I don’t care about the money spent or whatever. I spend money for seeds all the time that I don’t really need. I was just trying to understand if there was something extra fabulous or extraordinary about those varieties of lettuce. So far, I have avoided pelletized lettuce seeds only because I didn’t understand what the purpose of the coating was for.

Homegrwoninillinois wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 2:10 pm I am a licensed (in my state) small seed seller. I am required to print the year of sale on the package. When the year changes I must remove those items from sale.

I will use them in swaps, trades, etc. but I cannot legally sell them in my state. This is done to protect the consumer from purchasing old seed.

Each state has different requirements, and many seed sellers are not licensed. I hope this helps.

~ Sam

Unless the State sends an inspector to your business to watch you harvest, clean and then package & label seeds, I don't see how the buyer is protected, I really don't. What am I missing? Serious question. Thanks.

It's like a woman having an unassisted home birth with only the father in attendance (I know of one such case, my friend's son & daughter in law) and then stating that the child was born on such and such a date. No govt official was there to see it and affirm they know the date of birth.

I think the point of coating is to help reduce waste. I can space them properly. I have also had pelleted carrot seeds in the past. I didn’t buy the Salanova because they were pelleted. I bought them because a friend highly recommended the variety so gave them a try. Pelleting was a bonus. Am now a convert! Johnny’s also has a video showing how to best harvest them.

Good thread. Learning a lot about seed age and viability, was shocked about DofT seed age actually being what was printed on the packaging. Also learning about pelletized seeds and the reasons why folks like them. I have avoided the pelleted seeds in the past, maybe I should reconsider.