doubts in my f5

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Nico
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doubts in my f5

#1

Post: # 68172Unread post Nico
Wed Apr 20, 2022 12:57 pm

Hello everyone, it's been a long time since I've published anything since I'm very busy with work and others, but very often I enter the forum to read you, I'll always be linked to all of you and above all I'm grateful for your help. I tell you what has happened to me with a cross or line that I carry.
For years I have followed a cross or my own line of two favorite varieties, one tomato plant had a regular leaf and another had a potato leaf, but my choice year after year has been potato leaf, each year that passes I get more and more tomato plants. potato leaf than regular, but this year I have planted more than 100 plants and they have all come out of regular leaf, I don't know what could have happened.
Thank you very much to all
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Toomanymatoes
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Re: doubts in my f5

#2

Post: # 68173Unread post Toomanymatoes
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:10 pm

So, in the F2, F3 and F4 did you also get regular leaf from the selected potato leaf plants??

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Re: doubts in my f5

#3

Post: # 68174Unread post Doffer
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:12 pm

These seeds are not 100% from the potato leaf plant. maybe u switched seeds.
Best to seed the F4 generation.

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Toomanymatoes
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Re: doubts in my f5

#4

Post: # 68175Unread post Toomanymatoes
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:33 pm

There was a recent discussion on this forum regarding plants seemingly arbitrarily switching from PL to RL. Following classical Mendelian genetics, that does not make sense. However, the reason PL exists [at least, the most common reason] is due to an insertion of a type of DNA element called a retrotransposon into the 'c' gene. The RL plants do not have this insertion.

Retrotransposons are bizarre and interesting things. Often referred to as jumping DNA. It may be possible this type of 'mutation' is not static and affects the function/activity of the 'c' gene, such that you may get a RL instead of a PL depending on conditions. I need to do much more research, but it is really fascinating.

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Re: doubts in my f5

#5

Post: # 68176Unread post Rockoe10
Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:51 pm

@Toomanytomatoes , interesting. If this is the case then it's also possible that the gene that causes PL could lead to other changes in the genome. Such is the nature of Retrotransposons
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Shule
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Re: doubts in my f5

#6

Post: # 68180Unread post Shule
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:58 pm

@Nico
Have you been bagging your blossoms?

How many fruits did you plant seeds from, in this project? If they all came from the same single fruit (or even two, but considerably less likely), that would make a lot more sense for this scenario. If you used seeds from lots of fruits, it doesn't make much sense at all (but I still have a hypothetical idea there). If you're not bagging blossoms, it's a good idea to save seeds from multiple fruits and package the seeds of each fruit separately.

How many plants did you grow from each fruit?

Have you been growing any RL varieties outside your project, or is your project (and/or PL varieties) all that you've been growing?

Have your neighbors been growing RL tomatoes?

Which variety did the initial PL trait come from? Apparently, there are lots of genes that provide for PL-like traits. So, knowing where it came from may be helpful.

If you've been bagging your blossoms correctly, then something tricky is definitely going on, or else you've mixed up your seeds. I can't tell you what happened there.

If you haven't been bagging your blossoms, it's most likely due to cross-pollination. Most likely, a father plant (RL/RL) pollinated all the seeds that you grew (making them PL/RL, expressing the RL). It sounds like it was probably a plant outside your project (perhaps one you grew, or perhaps one your neighbors grew).

In the case that you planted seeds from multiple fruits, one possibility is that the RL father had particularly strong pollen, and the PL mother had particularly weak pollen (maybe it wouldn't set in the heat while the father pollen would).

I would definitely expect the RL plants to have other differences besides leaf type (unless one of the possible RL parents closely resembled your PL plants in most of the other traits, or unless the father's traits are all recessive ones, besides leaf type). You could grow one out to prove whether it is a cross. In my experience doing that, they've *always* proven to be crosses, with other differences besides leaf type. If they look the same, due to dominant genes hiding recessive traits, then growing it out another generation should prove it.

If you haven't been growing any RL varieties outside your project, and your neighbors haven't been growing any RL tomatoes, then the most likely scenario is that an RL/PL father plant from your own project (if you didn't thin them all out) cross-pollinated everything, and chance had it that all the plants turned out RL/PL, expressing the RL, since it's dominant; so, next year, if further crosses don't occur, each seed should have a 75% chance of being RL and a 25% chance of being PL (it's still possible that they'll all be RL again, but it's much more likely, you'll have some PL plants, too, unless you don't grow many plants).

It's important to realize that if any crosses occurred, from plants outside your project, then you've got a new project, and should probably work with older seed that gives you PL plants if you want to keep going with the original project.
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Re: doubts in my f5

#7

Post: # 68182Unread post bower
Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:22 pm

Yes, it is an interesting point about the possibility of a switch from PL to RL or vice versa. However I agree with Doffer and Shule, you probably have a cross there with an unknown RL in the previous generation. If all the seeds are from one fruit, that would tend to explain the complete large number of RL plants. Or even if from several fruit that ripened at the same time, it may be that pollinators were very active at that time, and assuming some RL plants were near at hand, they have been crossed. I noticed that the bumblebees here are very attentive at certain points in the season, and they visit the tomato flowers as soon as they opened every day, on every plant.
So this would be a new F1 cross, and if you saved seeds, you will get 1/4 PL in the F2 next generation as before.
To recover the cross you've been working on, you should go back to the previous generation and this time, bag the blossoms when you want to save the seeds.
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Re: doubts in my f5

#8

Post: # 68185Unread post Pippin
Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:25 am

I also lean towards the non-genetic explanation. But it would be still interesting to learn later how the fruits of these RL plants looked like, e.g. if they were anything close to the PL version.

It would be also nice if this Retrotransposons discussion continued too somewhere. I am still troubled of understanding how it could explain the unstability of the PL phenotype as it seems to be more about copy-paste (i.e. copying similar gene fragments to different places) rather than cut-paste (i.e. removing the gene frgment while moving it). This is unknown territory to me.

@Rockoe10 It seems that at least some allels of familiar genes like the PL (c-1 is the classical PL mutant with the insertion), Sun (i.e. elongated fruit and whispy leaves) and R (yellow flesh) have identical sequences because of this Retro thingie (which they have named as the Rider element if I get it right).
Interestingly, the element found in c-1 is identical in sequence (4867 bp) to the Rider elements responsible for mutations in the genes Sun, Fer, and R (Cheng et al., 2009). This active Rider element (Jiang et al., 2009) may also be responsible for some of the many spontaneous mutants collected at the Tomato Genetics Resource Center (TGRC).
https://www.researchgate.net/publicati ... ne_Modules
BR,
Pippin

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Re: doubts in my f5

#9

Post: # 68189Unread post bower
Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:09 am

I had something similar happen to me one year, where the seeds I expected to be RL were all PL. Regret to say that, in spite of my self assurance, I later concluded it was a seed labeling error! :oops: These things can and do happen when you're saving a lot of varieties' seeds. One way it can happen is if the fruit from two plants looks similar - then the carefully labeled jar or dish was mismatched in the first place - probably the source of my error. :evil:
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Re: doubts in my f5

#10

Post: # 68194Unread post Toomanymatoes
Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:22 am

I do not disagree that most logical explanation is cross-pollination or some type of mix up.

While the PL to RL switch is anecdotal, the fact that a retrotransposon is involved piqued my interest. I have always been fascinated by transposons and that still rather unexplored frontier in molecular biology/genetics.

The element is indeed named Rider and is only found in the Lycopersicon genus. Similar elements are found in the thale grass A.thaliana (and probably others), which is very often used as a model for research. What is intriguing about retrotransposons is that they are active elements. They encode for a protein that enables them to copied and inserted elsewhere. They also can act as regulators of gene activity and it is thought that these types of elements are how some components of gene regulation came to exist through evolution.

https://academic.oup.com/genetics/artic ... ogin=false
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... ccess=true
https://www.mdpi.com/1999-4915/12/10/1089

What is even more fascinating is these elements become active in plants during times of environmental stress.

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/ ... en.1008370

Does this mean Rider could be involved in a supposed PL to RL switch? I have no idea and is unlikely, but something still worth exploring.

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Re: doubts in my f5

#11

Post: # 68199Unread post Pippin
Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:13 pm

Thanks for the links @Toomanymatoes, I liked the last one especially! This is really interesting, I was not aware of this in-build mechanism of causing mutations in my tomato plants. Of course, I have heard about spontanious mutants and epigenesis but having a full engine ready to operate with stress factors like drought or high NaCl as potentially activating agents is something new.

You have changed the way I look my tomatoes from now on. :lol:

Those sneaky bastards!
BR,
Pippin

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Nico
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Re: doubts in my f5

#12

Post: # 68201Unread post Nico
Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:22 pm

Hello from Spain again, first of all I want to thank you for your help, you are all wonderful and I thank you from the bottom of my heart.
The initial cross was from a plant with a regular leaf and another with a potato leaf, in the f2, 3 and four I have selected a potato leaf, in the f3 I got some incredible potato leaf plants, I have never seen potato leaves so big and the most curious thing was that of about 50 plants that I planted, almost all came from potato leaves, the truth is that it caught my attention, of about 20 plants that I put in the final land, one of them caught my attention because of its tomatoes for their great flavor and from the same plant select three different tomatoes since of the three selected tomatoes they were different in shape and color but very similar in their great flavor, I put the seeds of these three tomatoes to germinate and all of them have come out of the leaf regular, I'm almost sure it wasn't a labeling error...although anything can happen, the super rare thing is that they are seeds from three different tomatoes, although from the same plant.
I am going to germinate again a year before (f4) to see what happens but I am also going to keep some plants with regular leaves to see what happens.
I hope that through the translator I have explained myself well and again thank you very much for everything... you are the best of the best
Greetings
Nico.
Plants have, like animals, in the degree and almost in the form, the sensitivity, that essential attribute of life.

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Re: doubts in my f5

#13

Post: # 68202Unread post Rockoe10
Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:33 pm

@Nico , the other question would be: Did you have any Regular Leafed plants growing at the same time?

I would also mention, if you harvested varying fruit shape from one plant, it's very possible that plant was not stable.
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Re: doubts in my f5

#14

Post: # 68218Unread post bower
Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:27 pm

@Nico I have had some crosses between parents of different shapes, where in the F1 or the F2 you find a plant that has many shapes on one plant. Shape genetics are quite complex, and if you have interactions of genes from both round and pointed or heart shaped parents, they can be partially expressed. And yes, you must grow it for the wonderful taste! :) Absolutely.

I believe from what you commented, that in every generation of the original cross, you had some RL as well as some PL? If so, it does probably indicate that your plants were freely crossing with others in the field. If you're able to bag some flowers, then mark the fruit that came from it for your seed saving, you should get 100% PL plants from a PL mother.
OTOH if you do bag the flowers and you don't get 100% PL seedlings, then that would support the other theory.
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Nico
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Re: doubts in my f5

#15

Post: # 68308Unread post Nico
Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:49 am

Hi, thanks for the answers. The truth is that if I had varieties with regular leaves and the flowers were not protected, I am one of those who think that it is difficult for them to cross, I am almost sure that I did not have any labeling errors and more than that they were seeds of three different tomatoes, for a On the other hand, I find it very interesting to follow these lines and see the result... this world is fascinating to me
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Re: doubts in my f5

#16

Post: # 68310Unread post bower
Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:01 am

@Nico I hope you'll have time to post and share your results. We love the mysteries too. :)
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Re: doubts in my f5

#17

Post: # 68339Unread post Nico
Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:45 pm

Shule wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:58 pm @Nico
Have you been bagging your blossoms?

How many fruits did you plant seeds from, in this project? If they all came from the same single fruit (or even two, but considerably less likely), that would make a lot more sense for this scenario. If you used seeds from lots of fruits, it doesn't make much sense at all (but I still have a hypothetical idea there). If you're not bagging blossoms, it's a good idea to save seeds from multiple fruits and package the seeds of each fruit separately.

How many plants did you grow from each fruit?

Have you been growing any RL varieties outside your project, or is your project (and/or PL varieties) all that you've been growing?

Have your neighbors been growing RL tomatoes?

Which variety did the initial PL trait come from? Apparently, there are lots of genes that provide for PL-like traits. So, knowing where it came from may be helpful.

If you've been bagging your blossoms correctly, then something tricky is definitely going on, or else you've mixed up your seeds. I can't tell you what happened there.

If you haven't been bagging your blossoms, it's most likely due to cross-pollination. Most likely, a father plant (RL/RL) pollinated all the seeds that you grew (making them PL/RL, expressing the RL). It sounds like it was probably a plant outside your project (perhaps one you grew, or perhaps one your neighbors grew).

In the case that you planted seeds from multiple fruits, one possibility is that the RL father had particularly strong pollen, and the PL mother had particularly weak pollen (maybe it wouldn't set in the heat while the father pollen would).

I would definitely expect the RL plants to have other differences besides leaf type (unless one of the possible RL parents closely resembled your PL plants in most of the other traits, or unless the father's traits are all recessive ones, besides leaf type). You could grow one out to prove whether it is a cross. In my experience doing that, they've *always* proven to be crosses, with other differences besides leaf type. If they look the same, due to dominant genes hiding recessive traits, then growing it out another generation should prove it.

If you haven't been growing any RL varieties outside your project, and your neighbors haven't been growing any RL tomatoes, then the most likely scenario is that an RL/PL father plant from your own project (if you didn't thin them all out) cross-pollinated everything, and chance had it that all the plants turned out RL/PL, expressing the RL, since it's dominant; so, next year, if further crosses don't occur, each seed should have a 75% chance of being RL and a 25% chance of being PL (it's still possible that they'll all be RL again, but it's much more likely, you'll have some PL plants, too, unless you don't grow many plants).

It's important to realize that if any crosses occurred, from plants outside your project, then you've got a new project, and should probably work with older seed that gives you PL plants if you want to keep going with the original project.
Thank you very much Shule as always, by the way I sent you a private message.
Plants have, like animals, in the degree and almost in the form, the sensitivity, that essential attribute of life.

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