An old French method of dwarfing tomatoes

[Toomanymatoes]

Is it typical to get the first flower cluster on an offshoot/sucker before the second cluster on the main stem? Might have to test this approach out.

I would probably top the main stem after the first flower cluster, let every sucker/offshoot grow and then top off all the sucker offshoots after the first flower cluster until I reach a total of five flower clusters. That might expand my ability to grow indeterminates in containers.

[JRinPA]

@Toomanymatoes I say absolutely, yes, if you don't pick those suckers, they will flower before the main stem's second flower.

Typical for me since I started single/double stemming - with most indeterminates like big beef - goes something like this:
1- plant out deep or trenched, so I break off some leaf branches (2, 3, 4, depends) to bury the stem, leaving only 2-3 leaf branches. I honestly can't say I pay attention to how many leafs there are before the first flowers. I don't know how the tomato would know, since I keep on breaking branches or suckers. If there is a set number of leaves, I don't know it. I figured it throws flowers when the plant decides it has enough energy.
2. the plant will put out more leaves until about 2 ft high and then will throw first flowers. I keep suckering.
3. The leaf node below that first flower set will almost immediately sprout a sucker that is nearly the same size as, sometimes larger, than the main stem. Sometimes they appear so co-dominant, that only the presence of the flowers identifies one as the main. And if the timing of sun/rain/heat is right, and I don't check for half a week, there will already be tiny leaves and flowers on the new stem.

If I double stem on a tomato plant, that is the new stem I try to allow, that really strong co-dominant crotch.

I do the single/double stemming with very close planting, allowing 6" of fence per stem. This brings a lot big tomatoes - lot first trusses - coming ripe at the same time. Then a lot of second trusses. Then the third trusses.

This "old french method", I'm thinking it is going to concentrate all the fruit of the plant into a shorter time frame. More like a determinate. But I'm not sure that they will be as early as the first trusses off a single stemmed plant.

I'll try to try it with a few plants. It will not be as sleek, but at least there is order to the madness.



@svalli I looked all over tville and internet for that the other day, couldn't find anything but a broken link on a google translate. I thought I had it bookmarked, probably an old pc.
The explanation/argument I remember was that a stem can only do 3 clusters before it is over burdened and the growth slows down. A new sucker near from the leaf node under the third cluster will be vigorous and grow three more flower clusters faster than the previous stem could grow 4, 5, 6. Mechanically speaking, it makes some sense, since 4'5'6' will now be in parallel with 3, rather than in series after it. I think it would shrink the quantity/size of truss 3 while boosting 4', 5', and 6'. It might work better for small tomatoes that don't require as much nutrients/energy to complete the tomato as larger tomatoes do.

6--------------------------------6'
5--------------------------------5'
4-------versus-----------3----4'
3-----------------------------V---
2-----------------------------2
1-----------------------------1


@Shule - I just read it as a race - first five to flower make the cut, the rest, well, they get the pinch. And not the nice kind...

[Rockoe10]

A train travels 100 km at a uniform speed…

In my mind, there was at least 11 flower clusters. 1 + 5 * 2.

Wait, I get 12! Oh no, it's one of those Twitter math questions

[Rockoe10]

A train travels 100 km at a uniform speed…

In my mind, there was at least 11 flower clusters. 1 + 5 * 2.

Wait, I get 12! Oh no, it's one of those Twitter math questions.

PEMDAS....

[karstopography]

How about the Missouri prune? Does anyone do this type of pruning?

[bower]

I've done Missouri pruning on times.
This is how I know that your suckers will also get suckers....

[karstopography]

I like to shade my fruit since I’m getting sunlight passing through considerably less filtering atmosphere than y’all far to the north. Missouri pruning satisfies this need.

This French pruning is interesting. The diagrams of this method are super helpful. The written descriptions far less so.

[Rockoe10]

I enjoyed reading through the variety of plants. When i got to the "Tree Tomato" i instantly thought "that must be the early beginnings of dwarf tomatoes"!

[JRinPA]

@karstopography hey could you link to those diagrams? I don't see them in the book.

I have to laugh, I looked at that book's index, there are more turnips listed than tomatoes...

[karstopography]

@JRinPA it is in the link share by @svalli in post #17. Text is in French, but the diagram is there.

[JRinPA]

Is anyone trying this?

I don't think that the post#17 link diagrams are what is described in that book. Those diagrams show topping to force 2 or 3 stems, then top after 3 clusters to promote a new stem off each. They stay 2 or 3 stems. I have seen those diagrams on and off for years.

'The French mode of raising tomatoes is as follows: "As soon as the cluster of flowers is visible, they top the stem down to the cluster, so that the flowers terminate the stem. The effect is, that the sap is immediately impelled into the two buds next below the cluster, which soon push strongly, and produce another cluster of flowers each. When these are visible, the branch to which they belong is also topped down to their level; and this is done five times successively. By this means, the plants become stout, dwarf bushes, not above eighteen inches high. In order to prevent their falling over, sticks or strings are stretched horizontally along the rows, so as to keep the plants erect. In addition to this, all laterals that have no flowers, and, after the fifth topping, all laterals whatsoever, are nipped off. In this way, the ripe sap is directed into the fruit, which aquires a beauty, size, and excellence unattainable by other means." --Gard. Chron.'

The book says to top after each flower cluster, and that boosts the next two suckers down. Then you top them after the next flower cluster. "and this is done five times successively." And then they are strung out along the rows, like an espalier.

What I am not sure about is, the 5 successive. Do you do this for five flower clusters total? Race to 5 fruit clusters? Because 5 is about what I can expect when single stemming, so that sort of makes sense.
Or 5 layers =
2^0+ 2^1+ 2^2+ 2^3+2^4 =
1+2+4+8+16 flower clusters? Which seems excessive LOL. But might be comparable to what you get in a big healthy sprawl.

05.JPG

This is why I like single stemming, very simple. Four five six clusters with good fruit set on each. This seems complicated to me. Unless I am truly missing something in that text?

[bower]

I had planned to try it this spring but in the end I didn't have the space. Plants were also started too early and potted up in miserable weather and I wasn't ready to start pruning either. And the indets are in a tight row where forcing them to bush out would be a problem.

[Toomanymatoes]

Is anyone trying this?

I don't think that the post#17 link diagrams are what is described in that book. Those diagrams show topping to force 2 or 3 stems, then top after 3 clusters to promote a new stem off each. They stay 2 or 3 stems. I have seen those diagrams on and off for years.

'The French mode of raising tomatoes is as follows: "As soon as the cluster of flowers is visible, they top the stem down to the cluster, so that the flowers terminate the stem. The effect is, that the sap is immediately impelled into the two buds next below the cluster, which soon push strongly, and produce another cluster of flowers each. When these are visible, the branch to which they belong is also topped down to their level; and this is done five times successively. By this means, the plants become stout, dwarf bushes, not above eighteen inches high. In order to prevent their falling over, sticks or strings are stretched horizontally along the rows, so as to keep the plants erect. In addition to this, all laterals that have no flowers, and, after the fifth topping, all laterals whatsoever, are nipped off. In this way, the ripe sap is directed into the fruit, which aquires a beauty, size, and excellence unattainable by other means." --Gard. Chron.'

The book says to top after each flower cluster, and that boosts the next two suckers down. Then you top them after the next flower cluster. "and this is done five times successively." And then they are strung out along the rows, like an espalier.

What I am not sure about is, the 5 successive. Do you do this for five flower clusters total? Race to 5 fruit clusters? Because 5 is about what I can expect when single stemming, so that sort of makes sense.
Or 5 layers =
2^0+ 2^1+ 2^2+ 2^3+2^4 =
1+2+4+8+16 flower clusters? Which seems excessive LOL. But might be comparable to what you get in a big healthy sprawl.

05.JPG

This is why I like single stemming, very simple. Four five six clusters with good fruit set on each. This seems complicated to me. Unless I am truly missing something in that text?

I do not believe your interpretation is correct. The final plant is only 18". So, what you are showing does not fit that description.

What it sounds like to me is that after you top the plant above the first flower cluster, more flower clusters are produced near the first flower cluster. So the plant doesn't really grow "up", but "out". I envision it more like a forced multi-flora plant.

I believe the other dwarfing method described is different from that. That method seems to just top each branch (main branch plus lower suckers) after the flower cluster forms.

[Pippin]

… just top each branch (main branch plus lower suckers) after the flower cluster forms.

I have one plant going and I am managing it exactly like described above. I just managed to re-pot it. It was a bit too long in smaller pot with too little nutrients and the first leaves got yellow. So, I have removed some older yellow leaves too. Not sure if my choise of plant was the best one for this experiment as the plant is a PL whispy with pimp heritage, a cross of mine. The leaves are really fragile and I have now abandoned it outside.

It is a funny looking plant, maybe 30 cm high, now spreading quickly as more and more suckers are growing below the first flower cluster. The first topping made only one of the below suckers grow stronger, which become a stronger side ”arm”. But now other suckers are growing strongly too.

What I can tell so far is that the method seem to work just fine.

Sorry, no pics to share yet.

[JRinPA]

The diagram is drawn up because the paper goes up!

I just can't figure the "five times successively" - which would mean an exponential process for (cluster/top/two suckers)x5. But then a few sentences later it says "after the fifth topping". I'm thinking it really is just the first 5 flower clusters -(cluster/top)x5, then pinch all new growth.

I can still try this to compare. I'd like to try the other one too, that forcing two/three suckers and allowing 3 clusters, then forcing another sucker.

[Pippin]

You are right, @JRinPA, it is very unclear. I have the same problem of not really knowing what this fifth time really referres to. I was thinking of not bothering about it, and just keep topping until it looks enough and then maybe start pinching new growth away if it really seems necessary. If you choose another method or test multiple different ones, that is just better.

[slugworth]

too complicated for me.
Must lose something in the translation.

[Toomanymatoes]

Not saying this is correct, but this is how I interpret that statement.

Grow to first flower cluster. Top it down to the flower cluster.

The bottom two suckers grow out.

Top the two new stems at the flower clusters.

A sucker from each of those two stems grow out. Remove the 2nd suckers (assuming suckers grow at every axil) OR continue with the same process.

Top at the flower clusters on the two new stems.

Remove all suckers from the last two stems (assuming suckers grow at every axil) OR you can continue with the same process.

French_Dwarf_Pruning-001.jpg

French_Dwarf_Pruning-002.jpg

[Pippin]

Nice diagrams @Toomanymatoes !

Here is how mine looks right now. It is a funny looking plant even without pruning as the leaves are very long and PL. Maybe not a true whispy but still similarly strange. As I wrote earlier, I have removed some large leaves that got yellow (because of less optimal growing conditions).

This is F4 from a cross between Kotlas and an orange currant tomato. Tomatoes are yellow cherries, few first ones typically grow larger but they tend to become more round later in the season.

0202A3B6-A4BF-4979-A68A-915150965A24.jpeg

A7751563-0EAE-404C-B14D-8BBB1E756B26.jpeg

F4176A62-2C57-4FE5-AAB5-4B31C390EE14.jpeg

[Shule]

"As soon as the cluster of flowers is visible, they top the stem down to the cluster, so that the flowers terminate the stem."

The above is clear.

"The effect is, that the sap is immediately impelled into the two buds next below the cluster, which soon push strongly, and produce another cluster of flowers each."

This isn't clear. Are the two buds supposed to be suckers with flowers, or are they just supposed to be flowers?

"When these are visible, the branch to which they belong" (Emphasis added.)

I guess that maybe answers my question, but then if it did, they would have said 'branches' instead of 'branch'. So, they could still be referring to a single stem.

"is also topped down to their level;"

I think they meant 'branches' in the previous quote personally, otherwise you'd be topping the same stem three times.

"and this is done five times successively. By this means, the plants become stout, dwarf bushes, not above eighteen inches high. In order to prevent their falling over, sticks or strings are stretched horizontally along the rows, so as to keep the plants erect. In addition to this, all laterals that have no flowers, and, after the fifth topping, all laterals whatsoever, are nipped off. In this way, the ripe sap is directed into the fruit, which aquires a beauty, size, and excellence unattainable by other means." --Gard. Chron.'

This could mean all sorts of things:
1. It could mean that you never let a terminated stem grow back (such that there's fruit at the top of every stem), and you let it spread out five times, such that you get a wide plant. Considering the 18" height, and the wide support, that would seem a likely interpretation.

I was going to evaluate other interpretations, but now I'm convinced this one is right. However, this pruning method definitely looks like it requires that kind of support. However, it would be a rather short support; so, it should be pretty easy to configure something.

However, this does give me ideas for new pruning methods. If pruning to make flowers terminate the stem causes more flowers below to be produced, you could let the stem grow back and do that with the next cluster on it, each time, and do that with every branch/sucker, such that the plant is a uniform bushy globe, with lots of fruit.