Tomato Splitsville From Rain

[Seven Bends]

Well... I think would have to force feed those Hawks lead by the cup full like they did to those poor ducks in the seventies. AFTER they decided to try to ban lead shot and neded some "science" to back it up.

I hate to have to say anything...DDT was truly causing thin egg shells. Lead shot was just political. I hate to have to say anything and I mean no disrespect, but saying nothing is tacit agreement. I'm sure they teach it in public school but that doesn't make it true.

Unfortunately you're not correct about lead poisoning of wildlife, especially raptors. It's a serious problem, and you can find the scientific studies easily if you look for them. I'm not talking about scientific studies of force-feeding ducks lead by the cupful, which I've never heard of and which sounds like an exaggeration. I'm talking about, for example, surveys of blood lead levels in actual wild raptors, not force-fed anything.

Please note, I'm not telling you or anyone else not to use lead ammunition and I'm not saying it should be banned. I wasn't trying to start a political conversation at all. I just wanted a friendly poster who was trying to do a nice thing for his hawks to know that there's a chance it could backfire if lead is involved. A bird doesn't actually have to ingest much lead to get sick, so it's conceivable that just a few shot-ridden carcasses could be a problem if the same birds are consuming them repeatedly.

[JRinPA]

I agree, it was an exaggeration, their exaggeration. They needed to exaggerate the possible situation to produce lead poisoning in ducks. Lead is heavy and sinks deep, ducks and geese won't pick it up in the wild. Not enough for problems. But since they wanted to pass it, they did. The ducks weren't dying from a reasonable amount of shot, even when force fed to them. They pass it just like grit, it doesn't dwell in them. So they were fed copious amounts, repeatedly, until they got the results they wanted. Murderers for their cause, the cause ultimately being to end the hunting that those "mean people" do. And it worked; there are a lot less hunters because of all the regs. They killed off the condor with development of SoCal but managed to paint it as if lead bullets caused it, and banned lead bullets for the entire state. It is the same fight, 40 years later.

It is social studies, not science.

[JRinPA]

The mandated replacement for ducks and geese was steel shot, which is so light it does a poor job of holding energy, so it wounds instead of kills, and worse is extremely hard. I broke a molar a few months back because I bit a piece of steel shot. I have bit down on dozens, nay hundreds of pieces of lead shot over the years. Lead deforms, if you bite it, you feel it, say argh, and spit it out. Steel doesn't deform a bit when you accidentally bite it. I had to have a molar removed because of those lying politicians and "scientists". It fractured the root of the molar. But those people would probably laugh and be happy that this "mean hunter" was injured.

I killed that bird with lead shot and bagged it, having no idea it was already carrying steel shot. Someone was using ineffective steel for pheasants, and must have put at least one pellet in the breast, probably more in the gut and legs, but didn't knockdown or recover the bird.

I missed the steel pellet in the cleaning process. It got frozen as cleaned pheasant breast, thawed out months later. Inspected again while being sliced up, removed any more pellets I found. I think they were pretty clean. Made quesadillas, they were excellent. On the third quesadilla I bit down hard on a .130" steel ball bearing. It hurt, deep throb, but not tingly or sensitive. I could still chew, but it throbbed. Noticed it just a little the next day, thought it was okay. A few days later I couldn't hardly sleep, but it was Friday, couldn't get an appointment. Started running a fever, popping pills acetametaphine and ibuprofen. On Monday I called and the dentist said it was probably bruised, swish salt water, then call back on Thursday. On Thursday they squeezed me in, were surprised by the swelling and infection, said it might be broken, here's your bill, here's a referral for endo. Endo scans with 3d and says it is probably broken, can't do root canal, here's your bill, take this referral to oral surgeon. Two oral surgeons, first was shyster that I got ticket driving there. Second was okay. A month of hell before it could be pulled, and another few weeks before the next molar calmed down. It seems to be okay.

They don't grow back, by the way.

The only good part is that it wasn't another family member or friend or dog that lost a molar. I have been worried about this happening for over 20 years, since I started duck and goose hunting and recognized the danger. We had to be very careful inspecting meat and would still miss pellets, so on ducks and geese we ended up keeping only the breast, and being very careful when eating, and only cooking it seared and then slicing thin. Which is a great way to eat duck, wild duck, but throwing away duck legs makes me cry. They are so good braised, but that was all we could do, because the legs often catch shot and it won't pass through.

But I'd find steel empties where they were being used for upland game - not ducks over water where it is mandated. And have found steel shot in upland game that we bagged. It was just a numbers game until someone bit down hard on a piece of steel shot that someone else put into a game bird. Because some hunters, especially younger ones, have been brainwashed into believing that solid lead on the ground is somehow going to hurt animals, and don't have the insight to see possible repercussions of flinging steel around.

Using "non-toxic" steel shot for squirrel would not only wound some squirrels to end up dying in their holes - it would also be an absolute danger to anyone eating that meat. The FDA would make quite a big stink if ball bearings were found in ground beef.

I have pheasant legs packaged in the freezer that have may have unseen steel shot in them from this same bird. Which package? I have no idea. It is a serious problem.

[Seven Bends]

I agree, it was an exaggeration, their exaggeration. They needed to exaggerate the possible situation to produce lead poisoning in ducks. Lead is heavy and sinks deep, ducks and geese won't pick it up in the wild. Not enough for problems. But since they wanted to pass it, they did. The ducks weren't dying from a reasonable amount of shot, even when force fed to them. They pass it just like grit, it doesn't dwell in them. So they were fed copious amounts, repeatedly, until they got the results they wanted. Murderers for their cause, the cause ultimately being to end the hunting that those "mean people" do. And it worked; there are a lot less hunters because of all the regs. They killed off the condor with development of SoCal but managed to paint it as if lead bullets caused it, and banned lead bullets for the entire state. It is the same fight, 40 years later.

It is social studies, not science.

There are no such studies of feeding copious amounts of lead to ducks, nothing like that was used as the regulatory basis for banning lead ammunition, and most of what you wrote here is simply not true.

If you're interested in learning about the subject, here is an excellent article from the peer-reviewed scientific journal Ambio (Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6675766/

There's a section right near the beginning that explains what actually happens to lead ingested by birds, and you may be surprised to find that it doesn't all pass through them like grit. Some is absorbed, then transported by the blood and deposited into soft tissue/organs, bones and feathers. The article also discusses routes of exposure, chronic vs. acute exposures, physiological effects and clinical signs of poisoning, lethal vs. sub-lethal effects, and many other topics.

At the end of it, you'll find a list of 128 other references for more information. These are peer-reviewed scientific journal articles, symposium proceedings, and government agency publications. They're not anti-hunter screeds, Audubon Society newsletters, etc.

Again, I didn't express any opinion about lead ammunition, I didn't criticize anyone for hunting, I wasn't even secretly harboring such thoughts. I just really like red-shouldered hawks and I thought it was interesting that someone was feeding them their extra squirrel carcasses, but I was concerned about a possible route of poisoning that the poster might not have considered.

[Tim DH]

Hi JR,
Do you have access to a metal detector? I guess scanning carcases should show up any problems. It would be easy to test this idea. Then you could save/serve duck legs etc without anxiety.

Tim DH

[JRinPA]

As for metal detectors, we tried them 20 years back; they were not reliable. They would not always pick up small steel shot, even held uncovered in the palm of the hand.

Any shot harder than lead should not be allowed to be manufactured and poses a terrible risk to anyone eating that meat. It would never be acceptable to have meat, vegetables, cheese, or tofu laced with steel pellets and sold at a store. It should not be acceptable for game, either.

It was quite amazing, the endo assistant taking 3d xrays, 20 something female, didn't even know what I meant by biting on shot. She thought I was saying that I had "been shot" in the mouth. The endodontist, she of course had seen it before. And the oral surgeon, older guy that knew his business, asked right away, "do you hunt ducks?"

I'm not going to discuss this further. It is painful for me to talk about or think about. I hope that sharing my long personal experience with "safe, non-toxic" shot will prevent future injuries.

[MissS]

While this thread has gone way off of topic, I will have to say that I agree with @JRinPA. My family owns a game club. The year that we used steel shot was a disaster. The shot does not travel near as far and your target needs to be much closer in order to kill it. We had so many injured birds running around and then dying long after they had been shot from infections rather than the injuries. Many birds survived the first hit and then someone else would shoot it and the birds would be filled with steel shot. Removing all the shot out of a bird before cooking it is not so easy. You almost always miss one pellet. As JRinPA states, steel shot is quite hard on ones teeth.

We had a large pond just for duck hunting. There was a heck of a lot of lead shot being fired over it and the water in the pond never tested high for lead. We did not fish that pond in order to allow the fowl some peace in the summer. The fish in the other ponds were numerous and healthy and got great reports from the DNR.

[GoDawgs]

MEANWHILE, back at the ranch..... LOL!

Well, a few more Dwf Russian Swirls have split without any rain. Pickles wanted to pull that plant but I suggested one more chance. This time, no watering it at all until it asks for it, as in a little wilting. None of the other tomatoes, dwarf or otherwise, are having this problem and I can't remember growing a tomato that has had this much problem with splitting.

Now, Mother Nature sometimes has other ideas. We got 1" of rain in 30 minutes yesterday afternoon but it won't hurt the Russian Swirl since Pickles had already removed all the half ripes since they were split anyway. Time for the plant to start over setting stuff.