Herbicides

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karstopography
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Herbicides

#1

Post: # 21324Unread post karstopography
Wed Jun 03, 2020 7:58 am

Seems like I’ve read here and there persistent herbicides potentially are in straw, like the straw used as mulch. Then, I read that manure could also be a vector for potentially tomato damaging herbicides.

It does seem to make some sense. There are selective broadleaf herbicides applied to livestock forage pastures or potentially GMO crops specifically created with genes designed to be unaffected by common herbicides.

Cow grazes such crops, crops pass through digestive system, manure gets composted and bagged and sent to your favorite garden center. Or treated straw gets cut and packaged and sent to your favorite garden center.

Is this a real concern to be wary about or just something that really isn’t a factor in reality?

Interestingly, I live on a natural oxbow lake governed by an association. The association periodically will apply a herbicide, 2,4,D typically to control various aquatic plant species. That’s all well and good, but the association hadn’t been giving any residents a heads up on the timing of the application. Are you kidding me! 2,4,D is a known tomato killer and even the label recommends not using water for irrigation for 7 days afterwards, especially for tomatoes, where 2,4,D was applied. Do you think a group of property owners, many with gardens and irrigation systems pulling water directly from the lake, might want to know this information in advance?

It was only because I sort of overheard some talk of spraying the lake for weeds did I then send the assn. President an email asking that we all get a notification prior to the date of treatment. Never occured to him to do this, but he gladly did. Not everyone is a gardener. I did take him some tomatoes, not irrigated from the lake during the interval, as a thank you.

But someone concerned about feeding livestock or growing hay isn’t necessarily thinking about other users of the straw or manure down the road, just like an association not connecting the dots between water supply and how things done to that might have broader implications.
Zone 9a/b, right on the line, in the heart of the Columbia bottomlands. Heat zone 9, Sunset Zone 28, annual rainfall 52”

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brownrexx
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Re: Herbicides

#2

Post: # 21326Unread post brownrexx
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:13 am

This is why I won't use the free compost from our local community composting facility. Many landscaping companies drop off treated grass clippings there.

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MissS
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Re: Herbicides

#3

Post: # 21327Unread post MissS
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:18 am

I do think that you have answered your own question. This is something to be wary about but very hard to avoid contact with herbicides.

Yes, I too live in a HOA with a retention pond that is treated to keep the weeds and algae in check. People here must keep the weeds out of their lawns too so herbicides are flying everywhere. Bringing in soil, mulch, compost from the community compost pile and manure are all risky these days but so very beneficial for gardens if not contaminated with chemicals. There really is no way to know what you are getting because like your Association President, people just do not think of such things as being important.

It seems it's getting harder and harder to garden these days.
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stone
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Re: Herbicides

#4

Post: # 21343Unread post stone
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:58 am

http://www.thesurvivalgardener.com/deal ... amination/

Remember the good old days when we could use our compost, manure, or whatever secure in the belief that that crap broke down in the composting process?
From wikipedia:

Pyridine Herbicides (a.k.a. pyridine carboxylic acid herbicides) are a family of herbicides that include:

aminocyclopyrachlor (Imprelis)
aminopyralid
cliodinate
clopyralid
diflufenican
dithiopyr
flufenican
fluroxypyr
haloxydine
picloram
picolinafen
pyriclor
pyroxsulam
thiazopyr
triclopyr

Gardeners are warned against pyridine herbicides because they "do not readily break down in compost."

"The active ingredients of most concern are aminopyralid, clopyralid, and picloram. These herbicides eventually break down due to heat, exposure to sunlight, moisture, and microbial action. However, the primary factor in their degradation is aerobic microbial action. Breakdown is particularly slow in manure and compost piles, due to lack of oxygen. These compounds may persist for as long as several years in certain situations."

Aminocyclopyrachlor, marketed as Imprelis, is also named as one of the problematic herbicides in this family. "Ohio State University researchers found that when grass was treated with aminocyclopyrachlor and composted, it degraded by about 60 percent over 200 days, with plenty of the active ingredient remaining to do damage to susceptible crop plants - including beans, cucumbers, and tomatoes."

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brownrexx
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Re: Herbicides

#5

Post: # 21347Unread post brownrexx
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:11 am

And to compound the problem, we in the East are being hit with a new invasive insect, the Spotted Lantern Fly. There are no good organic controls and many people are using systemic insecticides and also all kinds of sprays.
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AZGardener
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Re: Herbicides

#6

Post: # 21350Unread post AZGardener
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:27 am

I lost my cantaloupes 2 years ago due to herbicide drift, 2-4D most likely. I thought they had some weird disease.
Had no idea about herbicide drift and how it can travel half a mile or more in some situations.
A gardener I watch on You Tube lost his tomato crop to Grazon (he suspects) last year. He is in Texas near
Houston.
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AZGardener
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Re: Herbicides

#7

Post: # 21351Unread post AZGardener
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:32 am

brownrexx wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:11 am
And to compound the problem, we in the East are being hit with a new invasive insect, the Spotted Lantern Fly. There are no good organic controls and many people are using systemic insecticides and also all kinds of sprays.
Oh no, sounds like a nasty bug. I will look it up and read more about it.
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worth1
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Re: Herbicides

#8

Post: # 21364Unread post worth1
Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:38 pm

I keep losing my plants to lawn mower dust.
Just got hammered big time yesterday.
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Cole_Robbie
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Re: Herbicides

#9

Post: # 21383Unread post Cole_Robbie
Wed Jun 03, 2020 2:56 pm

2 4 d is really nasty stuff. Horse manure is a common carrier. Sprout a bean seed in a cup to test the material. Herbicide contamination makes the leaves grow in a gnarled fashion, easy to see.

Dow chemical used to have a site up on manurematters dot com warning about 2 4 d in manure, but it looks like they took it down.
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svalli
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Re: Herbicides

#10

Post: # 21985Unread post svalli
Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:41 am

Last couple of years there has been a lot of herbicide damage on tomatoes of home growers in Finland. Symptoms are the same as I have encountered 10 years ago, when using organic fertilizer containing vinasse. Vinasse is a by-product of sugar industry and clopyralid is used commonly on sugar beet fields. Most growers who have used fertilizers containing vinasse or molasses have got the problems with twisted tomato stems and leaves. This thing has been quite unknown, so many people just blame over fertilizing or the weather. Luckily people are now more aware and we are trying to get the manufacturers and officials to notice the issue.

I do not dare to use any commercial organic fertilizers or manure in my garden anymore. It is quite sad situation, when chemical fertilizers are the only safe option.

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loulac
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Re: Herbicides

#11

Post: # 21993Unread post loulac
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:11 am

I've had problems with carrot seeds that wouldn't germinate. When I stopped using manure or compost made from wheat straw no more problems. The culprits can be the selective weedkillers used in wheat fields.
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Steve73
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Re: Herbicides

#12

Post: # 21995Unread post Steve73
Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:15 am

Hay, manure and compost, those are the big three. There have also been reports of contamination found in bagged compost/potting soil. Nothing is safe unless you produce it yourself, and can see the process from start to finish.
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MsCowpea
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Re: Herbicides

#13

Post: # 22110Unread post MsCowpea
Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:39 am

I agree that it is better to wean yourself off outside sources but I am not prepared to give up on horse manure and bedding. I know if I was hammered with damage it would have to go but I always grow tomatoes in self watering containers as well (with no compost) so I can chance it.
Close by to me someone is growing 2 acres of turmeric on top of horse manure and bedding and we also are familiar with a huge place that rents out space for market producers and they also use copious amounts of the stuff. It really is the perfect addition for those short on organic matter and is usually free to boot. We have used it for 20 years.

The Horse bedding looks like shavings and the piles are mainly bedding. I can easily give up the 2 bales I get of alfalfa hay for composting and substitute grass clippings . That hay was super expensive anyway. I mulch with something called Coastal Hay (not really hay, looks like straw).
Not sure how it is produced . I can ask but people at feed store usually don’t have a clue about stuff like that.

I plant high nitrogen cover crops (nematode resistant) in all the beds so that helps with nutrients and nematodes.

I have also used many types of organic fertilizer (all different brands) with no problems. They all have the usual organic components and again with no issues so I hope I can keep squeaking by. As Sari says, It would be sad indeed, if your only choice was to use synthetic fertilizers.
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Texgal
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Re: Herbicides

#14

Post: # 22843Unread post Texgal
Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:07 pm

I saw a video recently from a gardener in Houston about this problem when he got the aminopyralid in some compost he got and he mentioned he grew some corn in it and then tested the soil again and it seemed to clear it up. I want to do some more research on that but his opinion was because the corn was a grass and a heavy feeder that the plant may have taken up the herbicide out of the soil. He didnt say if he ate the corn or not. 🙂 Or if he had a soil test or just tried his bean seed test a second time, but it made me curious, wondering if planting some kind of grass or other cover crop would clean that out of the soil. Haven't had time to research it yet, but will post if I find anything. Anyone in the group have info on this?
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Texgal
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Re: Herbicides

#15

Post: # 22847Unread post Texgal
Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:53 pm

Okay, I had a few minutes free and this topic really got my curiosity going. Found this info on just a quick Internet search. Just some food for thought. 🙂

http://www.pesticides.montana.edu/refer ... ation.html
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Bower
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Re: Herbicides

#16

Post: # 22864Unread post Bower
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:02 pm

That's a really good read, about ways to remediate the soil when you've been 'punked' with herbicides. I've never had the problem but I'm glad there's something can be done about it. :)
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