Stable H2 seeds?

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Barmaley
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Stable H2 seeds?

#1

Post: # 28428Unread post Barmaley
Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:28 pm

Hello,

I am making sense of my first year of tomatoes growing. I found so far that hybrid tomatoes are better than heirloom. I guess there should be a reason for that or seeding companies will not bother to develop them. At the same time the seeds are expensive and not always available locally. I read horror stories about F2, F3 etc may taste awful, but they may also taste great and be very similar to F1. I got an idea about saving a lot of seeds of my favorite F1 plants and try next year on plant of it to see what will happen and test my luck. My question is: lets say I will get a good results then how stable the seeds are? Can I expect all the seeds from one fruit to get the exactly the same genetics? What about different fruits from the same plant? I understand that the seeds may last up to 10 years and by that time heirloom breeders will develop open-pollinated similar to sungold, red torch, black cherry etc.

In addition I bought at a local vegetable store seedlings of unmarked brand of tomatoes which are one of the best. They are good size red tomatoes very tasty and productive. I have not a clue if they are F1 or whatever, I saved about 100 seeds and if they prove to be stable may use next year. That was one of the reason how I can to an idea of trying to test my luck with using the same F2 since I do not need more than 2-3 plants per year.

If that plan works I may use the technique if it happens to buy a really delicious tomatoes at a local market, where re-sellers have no idea about the brand.
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Last edited by Barmaley on Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#2

Post: # 28447Unread post MissS
Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:33 am

For now I will leave it for others to answer your question. However, you need to change your 'H' to an 'F'. F stands for fixation index. The higher the fixation index the more stable the plants genetics. F1 is far less stable than say an F8. There is no such thing as an H4 in the agricultural world, only a 4H.
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#3

Post: # 28449Unread post Nan6b
Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:42 am

Hi,
Glad to see your interest in all this.
If you save seeds from your hybrid F1, they are the F2 seeds and grow into F2 plants. You can't expect any two seeds to be the same. Not from the same fruit, same plant, anything. There are some instances where people seem to get the same plant from F2 as with F1 seeds. That's a bit of a mystery. It could mean: 1. The plant isn't really a hybrid and is breeding true, 2. There's something about the original parents that limits the variation in F2, but not in F3 and so on, 3. You just go really lucky.

If you like the taste of an F1 hybrid and save seeds, you have no idea what you'll get next year. You can try it; you may get something good, but chances are that you'll be disappointed. With hybrid seeds, you have to breed 8 generations to get to something stable. There is a ton of variation among the F2's, and the variation lessens with each generation till you get to F8 and they are all the same. If you want an open-pollinated version of a hybrid, you have to grow a ton of F2's to find one that matches the F1. Then you save a ton of seeds from that plant and you grow out a ton of F3's to find one that matches the F1. Save seeds from that plant and repeat. As the generations go by, you might need fewer plants to find one that matches the F1. Or if you don't find any matches, you need to grow more plants. It's difficult.

Your unmarked store seedling is probably your best bet for saving seeds, as it could be a non-hybrid which would breed true. Try saving seeds of that one and see what next year brings.
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#4

Post: # 28453Unread post Ginger2778
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:04 am

MissS wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:33 am
For now I will leave it for others to answer your question. However, you need to change your 'H' to an 'F'. F stands for fixation index. The higher the fixation index the more stable the plants genetics. F1 is far less stable than say an F8. There is no such thing as an H4 in the agricultural world, only a 4H.
Please permit my correction. F1 is first filial generation F stands for filial.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid
https://biologydictionary.net/f1-generation/
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#5

Post: # 28477Unread post Shule
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:48 pm

I've heard it stands for filial, too, for what its worth.

Be careful with tomatoes purchased as produce from a grocery store, since you don't normally know the intellectual property status, whether it's genetically engineered, and all that. Those are things plant breeders need to know in advance (if they wish to be legal), especially if they're going to share seeds with others (that's a major legal and ethical concern), or if their plants might cross-pollinate other tomatoes they're growing, which they might save seeds from and share with others (ditto).

Odds are high that the tomato is public domain or else a PVP F1 hybrid, but I wouldn't count on it. It might have a rare utility patent, which would cause all kinds of issues. Or, it might be a PVP open-pollinated variety, which would be more problematic than a PVP F1 hybrid. Or it might have a plant patent (which I believe is similar to PVP, and very different from a utility patent).

I think it's more fun growing out F2s from accidental crosses than commercial hybrids anyway.
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#6

Post: # 28481Unread post Barmaley
Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:51 pm

Shule wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:48 pm
I've heard it stands for filial, too, for what its worth.

Be careful with tomatoes purchased as produce from a grocery store, since you don't normally know the intellectual property status, whether it's genetically engineered, and all that. Those are things plant breeders need to know in advance (if they wish to be legal), especially if they're going to share seeds with others (that's a major legal and ethical concern), or if their plants might cross-pollinate other tomatoes they're growing, which they might save seeds from and share with others (ditto).

Odds are high that the tomato is public domain or else a PVP F1 hybrid, but I wouldn't count on it.
I am not a commercial grower, all I do is a very few plants in containers at my back porch. Thus I would love to get an access to genetically engineered, PVP etc plants provided that they deliver superior fruits. My goal is not to get commercial quantities of tomatoes but a few fruits for a breakfast salad or pick few cherry types directly from a plant. What I definitely don't want to do is experimenting considering limited space resources. Advice on getting best GMO or PVP stable and productive product for personal use will be appreciated.
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#7

Post: # 28497Unread post Shule
Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:45 pm

@Barmaley
Hmm. I really don't think you want to grow those if you can help it. Fortunately, GMO tomatoes are not easy for home gardeners to obtain, and PVP open-pollinated varieties are not terribly numerous. For your goals, I would just recommend staying with public domain tomatoes, for the most part.

I'd recommend trying out various stable tomatoes before you venture too far into breeding unstable ones. I could send you some seeds of ones I think are prolific and nice.
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#8

Post: # 28499Unread post Barmaley
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:20 pm

@Shule
Thank you for the offer.

First you may give me a good advice on the varieties which I want to plant. This is my first year of trying to grow tomatoes on my porch and I I did about 27 plants of about 10 varieties. The results was a big disappointment. I was expecting fantastic tomatoes but what I got were just good tomatoes. I would say that at Costco or Wegmans I may but yellow cherry which resemble and are not any inferior to Sungolds which I got 4 plants in total. I like Cherokee Purple but I would not say that it is something as phenomenal. I still have memories of trying tomatoes of a field in Moldova and I still remember that surprise sensation with the first bite when you realize that tomatoes could be really delicacy. Thus I realized that tomatoes may taste fantastic, I may not encountered them yet! If I could select few types which are hopefully heirloom so I could save seeds and never worry about buying on time for the next year and just stick to them. I hope to find something similar to Sungold, good yellow one and something interesting. I like black cherry and Cherokee purple, but I realize there are many other types which I did not try. I live in North East PA and in this climate not every type can grow well I guess.
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#9

Post: # 28507Unread post Shule
Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:21 am

@Barmaley
So, you're looking for taste, mostly? Or production? Sweet taste mostly?
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#10

Post: # 28528Unread post Barmaley
Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:26 am

Mostly the taste. I like intense sweet and sour combination. The best taste so far was Cherokee purple and sungold. I need to add that next and very close were red torch and black cherry.
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Last edited by Barmaley on Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#11

Post: # 28545Unread post Ginger2778
Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:50 pm

Was your Cherokee Purple intense?
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#12

Post: # 28550Unread post Barmaley
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:41 pm

Ginger2778 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:50 pm
Was your Cherokee Purple intense?
It was more intense than Sungold. I understand that many things depend on a specifics of location, soils, watering etc, but in my case I think that sungold was OK but not phenomenal. CP gave a strong tomato taste, very juicy, both sweet and sour and well balanced. I would say that it was close in taste to cherry tomatoes in taste but more juicy and with great texture.
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#13

Post: # 28613Unread post JRinPA
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:51 pm

Barmaley, you might try Ron's Carbon Copy. It is a big cherry traded around 5-6 years back that sometimes came out sweet, sometimes sour like a plum. I grew them a few years in a row and saved a bunch of unbagged seed. Also Pink Bumblebee, another cherry I have grown, might work for you.

5b eastern PA...you should be able to grow most tomatoes. It is quite a bit colder up that way over the winter. I hunt some up around toby and shohola. Down here in Berks/Mont/Lehigh/Bucks the zone is considered 6b or 7a...but I'm not sure how that translates to tomatoes, being a summer crop. Up there in the summer it is still hot and humid, and just a few degrees cooler each day with almost as much sun as here. When autumn comes the leaves will change color a week or 10 days earlier than here. So a bit shorter season, then a much colder winter with all the lakes freezing up. The biggest difference in gardening is probably the soil being worse up there. But with summer container growing, it is probably about the same as container growing here.

I grow some vegetables in containers, mostly the wicking pots over a rain gutter. Peppers do wonderfully in them -I grow Antohi Romani, a Romanian frying pepper. Pack a ring of 10-10-10 fertilizer around the top rim and they really produce. I have never grown tomatoes in containers, so I can't give any advice about container growing in this climate. But I can certainly pass along a wide variety of heirloom seeds that might interest you. I received a lot of seeds through the big annual swap/trade about 5 years back, and have grown out some of them. Tormato was running it. If you have room for 27 containers to use, you can try 27 each year...

You may never find a container tomato that taste like one picked from a field in near the Black Sea. It is great imagery. I'm imagining a small but plump Cuostralee, just a little past ripe. But it is worth the try.
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#14

Post: # 28618Unread post Barmaley
Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:24 pm

Thank you JRINPA,

I am actually just a bit north of you in the Poconos. I am not sure how accurate is my 5b, I saw somebody in proximity using it in his signature.

Why on the Earth can not I grow the same tomatoes as I remember back in Europe? Don't we have a great climate here with a lot of sun? Why EVERY tomatoes I was buying in France was very good and why EVERYTHING in Japan was so tasty? I am thinking about truing to obtain tomato and strawberry seeds from Japan - may be that will be the solution?

I am not going to use 20+ containers next year, I am trying to restrict myself to no more then 10. My goal is not to grow food but a treat. Did you try to grow strawberry? Is it a good idea in NEPA?
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#15

Post: # 28631Unread post JRinPA
Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:44 pm

Image
from purdue.edu
Yeah I would consider you 5b. If you are above I-80 that is 5b, give or take half a zone. That map shows me as 6b, but there are some maps with a 7a bubble. Still, I think it means more for trees and perennial than summer crops.

Strawberries are not my thing, but many people do grow strawberries down this way. And down toward Lancaster Co the farms grow huge amounts of them. I've never tried to grow them; my mom had a bed of everberries. She'd get a small basket a week for the summer from a 4 tiered pyramid bed. After a few years she went back to work (we were all in school) and didn't have time to keep them going. Nowadays there are new kinds.

If you want to grow strawberries in containers in the Poconos, that would a good how to question to ask the forum. Maybe I would try it down here. Strawberry patches are a lot of work. I saw (on the internet) some vertical PVC pipe setup with holes that looked like it might work. A couple years back I was seriously considering building one, but I never did.

Can you dig some garden area or are you using solely containers?
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#16

Post: # 28633Unread post Shule
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:12 pm

While we're mentioning strawberries, if you want a treat, you might not mind alpine strawberries. They're pretty tasty, and even prolific, but the fruits are smaller than regular strawberries. I think they require less work to maintain, too. I'd recommend Reine des Vallees', although I have more experience with Alexandria and Yellow Wonder (and they're both good).

I wonder if you'd like Chocolate Sprinkles F1, Ambrosia Red (as well as other Ambrosia varieties), Blush, and SunSugar F1. I haven't grown them, yet, but I've heard great things about their flavor.
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Re: Stable F2 seeds?

#17

Post: # 28780Unread post Barmaley
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:46 pm

Shule wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:12 pm


I wonder if you'd like Chocolate Sprinkles F1, Ambrosia Red (as well as other Ambrosia varieties), Blush, and SunSugar F1. I haven't grown them, yet, but I've heard great things about their flavor.
I also wonder if I will like them. The problem is that you never know before you try but before reading the forums I could not even imagine the amount of varieties available :(

The ones which I expected a lot from became a failure (like sugar candy is a disaster and early girl is a disappointment). Midnight snack and Cherokee purple are great despite while shopping at lowes I almost passed them by because I was not impressed by their names.

I think I get about 15% of idea what growing tomatoes is about. For instance I realized that diseases is a serious issue but advertisement that the plants will grow to 12' (the thought which terrified me, I even start thinking about air layering to keep then inside my porch) is not an issue at all.

I wish where was a newbie manual where they will suggest: grow those 5 types and you will not be disappointed.
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Last edited by MissS on Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Changing Subject from H2 to F2

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Re: Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#18

Post: # 28795Unread post Shule
Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:56 pm

Since you grow in containers, why not try some of those designer dwarf tomatoes that people have been breeding? Tasmanian Chocolate is popular, I believe. Someone here recently mentioned Aztec as being maybe similar to SunGold F1.
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Re: Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#19

Post: # 28818Unread post Barmaley
Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:28 pm

Since very little experience I may just mostly by the names. Dwarf sound like a toy which will deliver very little fruits. If it has a normal size fruit the plant should only one of it. Am I wrong? Two biggest disappointments of the season were Little Sicily and Sugar Candy. I guess they were dwarfs?
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Re: Stable H2 seeds?

#20

Post: # 28832Unread post Mark_Thompson
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:53 am

Barmaley wrote:
Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:46 pm
I wish where was a newbie manual where they will suggest: grow those 5 types and you will not be disappointed.
The book Epic Tomatoes by Craig Lehoullier is pretty much the newbie manual that you’re looking for.
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