Vigorous determinates

[Shule]

Are there any determinate tomatoes that you would personally describe as vigorous?

[Nan6b]

If only Black Bear from TV were here!

[bower]

"Vigorous" is a term that seems to have more than one feature - growing fast, growing big, producing lots of suckers?
There are lots of determinates that grow fast, and some also grow big and keep making new suckers, if you include the 'semi-determinate category.
Shule, which determinates have you grown and which ones did you think were vigorous or not vigorous?

[Tormahto]

As a tomato machine, Siletz has been just about the best for me. But, like basically all determinates that I've tried, great flavor ain't there.

[Greenvillian]

But, like basically all determinates that I've tried, great flavor ain't there.

Tormato, do you have any experience with Black Sea Man? It's on my 2020 grow list, but I have no prior experience with it.

[Shule]

[mention]Bower[/mention]
I'm interested in all of your definitions of vigorous (not mine per se), since I want an open discussion with multiple perspectives.

To me, a vigorous determinate would be one that grows fast, strong, healthily, and robust, is hardy, and ideally produces well (not necessarily a size thing), without being later than it's supposed to be.

Most determinates grow pretty slowly and struggle in my garden compared to indeterminates. I don't really know any fully determinate tomatoes offhand I'd call vigorous (although I might know some), but semi-determinates (like Roma, Black Bear, and Sub Arctic Plenty) can sometimes be more vigorous than the indeterminates. If you call semi-determinates determinates, that's great. A lot of people and seed stores do.

[Nan6b]

Well, Bajaja performed well & produced well & had good taste, with less than enough sunlight, and with disease pressure. Lots of cherries over about 1 month's time. It's a small plant maybe 2' high. Very good taste.

[Tormahto]

But, like basically all determinates that I've tried, great flavor ain't there.

Tormato, do you have any experience with Black Sea Man? It's on my 2020 grow list, but I have no prior experience with it.

I have the same experience with Black Sea Man as with Chernomor, zilch, nada, nothing.

Sorry I can't help, but I limit myself to about 1 black variety a year, about 0.7 % of my trials.

[Tormahto]

I cannot call a semi-determinate a determinate if there is no terminal bud. Someone with expertise in this area may correct me.

[Greatgardens]

I would define vigorous as "a strong grower and producer despite cultural issues." (A prime reason I'm also a fan of hybrids.) One of the early vigorous determinate hybrids was Floramerica (IIRC). It was an AAS in 1978. It was a BIG plant, as I remember, and a very good medium-sized tomato. I would also describe the Mountain series as vigorous, although they don't get really big. I definitely like determinates for my EarthBoxes.
-GG

[patihum]

I'd call Bison a vigorous determinate. While it's a small plant, 2 ft. or so, it can be crazy productive. I picked 61+ tomatoes off of a plant one year in a few weeks time period.

[bower]

I cannot call a semi-determinate a determinate if there is no terminal bud. Someone with expertise in this area may correct me.

Terminal bud is the defining trait for sp/sp "self pruning" ie determinate. Semi-determinates also have terminal bud, it's unclear to me whether there is a separate gene involved but I think it is a combo of sp and some other growth habitty things. By one definition, semi-determinate has (iirc) at least six repeats on the main stem before the terminal bud.
You can get wierd things in crosses, where there are so many repeats you don't see the terminal bud until very late season, although it's there and would have turned up eventually.
Some of the "large" determinates actually do a trick, where a secondary shoot is produced from the side of the terminal bud, and then repeats the whole leaf-inflorescence pattern from the beginning of the plant. And can repeat that repeat several times. The terminal bud is definitely there, it just ain't the bitter end for these bad boys.

[Tormahto]

From a seedling standpoint, Cole has been the most vigorous determinate in my trials. Twenty three days from sowing, and it can be ready for transplanting. Twenty eight days from sowing, with ideal outdoor conditions, is what I get with the others. Like all determinate varieties, in my garden, great flavor just isn't there. It is a very meaty little 'mater, though. Perhaps if I ever get around to breeding, I'd like to breed some flavor into the above traits.

[Cole_Robbie]

I agree about Cole. It was my favorite early red.

Maglia Rosa would get my vote for most vigorous determinate. Taxi deserves a mention as well.

[OhioGardener]

@Bower
I'm interested in all of your definitions of vigorous (not mine per se), since I want an open discussion with multiple perspectives.

To me, a vigorous determinate would be one that grows fast, strong, healthily, and robust, is hardy, and ideally produces well (not necessarily a size thing), without being later than it's supposed to be.

Most determinates grow pretty slowly and struggle in my garden compared to indeterminates. I don't really know any fully determinate tomatoes offhand I'd call vigorous (although I might know some), but semi-determinates (like Roma, Black Bear, and Sub Arctic Plenty) can sometimes be more vigorous than the indeterminates. If you call semi-determinates determinates, that's great. A lot of people and seed stores do.

Plenty of the old Soviet-bred determinates would meet my interpretation of your definition. I have one that was given to me in 1993 for which I don't have the original name and haven't been able to find anything similar. It can be transplanted on June 15 in zone 6 and ripen it's first fruit by July 4th. It's a very fast-growing, rigid stemmed rugose plant that tops out at about 16-18 inches and then throws everything into fruiting. I grew out another flexible stem Russian determinate last year that was almost as fast, but with a more concentrated ripening time. I've been tinkering with these for a while and they've become a permanent part of my garden for extending my harvest because of the earliness and because they work well in low tunnels for spring frost protection.

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[PNW_D]

I found Roger's Sweet Light Yellow fairly vigorous ....... here's the harvest (yellow ones) off one plant ...

and a link to Tania site http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Roge ... ght_Yellow

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[Greatgardens]

Yes, that reminds me that many of the varieties from Russia/Ukraine are listed as bush varieties. I've started one of these already -- "Yellow Tomato Andromeda Zolotaya F1". These seeds are several years old and germinated in 4 days. That is pretty rare for my seed starting. My others in this group took 6-7 days. The supplier (NIKITOVKA Seeds -- eBay), also carries these Andromeda series hybrids in red and pink. I've had really good luck with this seller. Anyway, I would say from the growth of these, that this will definitely be a compact determinate.

Here's a link in case anyone is interested:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_ssn=na ... a&_sacat=0

[Dee]

I have found Scotia and Early Annie to be solid and very good producers. They are both early and do well in my region (zone 2a - 3a, depending on which resource you consult). They are fairly similar to each other; I find Scotia a bit juicier, with more seeds, a tad smaller, and though both are red, Scotia has slightly green shoulders before ripening.

I'll add my vote of support to Cole. The earliest tomato I have grown. Produces lots of tomatoes and was a sprawling determinate for me.

[Shule]

[mention]Dee[/mention]

I had a few seeds for Cole once, but I don't think they sprouted when I planted them. I've been wanting to grow it, though!

Great to know about Scotia and Early Annie!