Tomato seedlings dying off

[JimmyNardello]

While I can't say for sure that hard water is not the cause in your case, I can say that I have very hard well water and it has never affected my seedling trays or my garden plants. Our main problem is iron, which even with a pre-softener filter will leave rust stains on bathroom fixtures, but hard lime deposits are there too. I use house water that comes through the water softener for initially starting seeds because that's what I have available indoors for early seeding, but as soon as I move them to my greenhouse after they sprout, I use water through the hose, which is well water. Certainly all well water is not the same, my son lives a 10 minute drive from me, he has excellent tasting well water, and does not need a water softener.

Plants grow and thrive in a variety of soil types though they may prefer neutral or acid soils. Growing in a less than ideal type should not kill them, I assume they will take up what natural nutrients or minerals are useful to them and ignore the overload ones, unless it is actually something toxic. It seems like hard minerals in water could possibly slow them down, but should not kill them. Most of my flower seeds, broccoli, cabbage, herbs, cucumbers, melons, squash etc, (everything but tomatoes, peppers, eggplant) are started in, and only receive my hard well water with no problems whatsoever.

This occurred to me as well, so I'm not sure where that leaves me in terms of possible solutions. It may very well be damping off, but it just seems odd that even with adequate lighting, fans on the entire day, and somewhat intense cycles of nearly complete dryness followed by bottom watering could even foster fungal issues quickly enough.

[MissS]

Another thing to note: I've had seedlings do this and recover, and I don't believe they usually do recover from damping off.

They can. I have had them do that. Especially if I mound some soil further up the stem to encourage new roots. Fungicides are also said to help but I don't use them on seedlings.

[JimmyNardello]

Another thing to note: I've had seedlings do this and recover, and I don't believe they usually do recover from damping off.

They can. I have had them do that. Especially if I mound some soil further up the stem to encourage new roots. Fungicides are also said to help but I don't use them on seedlings.

So if this is damping off, is it simply inevitable - regardless of care? If spores are present in the air from last year's failings on my part, I guess I could try what you recommended. But other than that, I'm confused about what I can even do differently without having to buy additional things. Airflow is present - perhaps too much. New cells were utilized, lights were raised to prevent burn, and no fertilizer was added until just recently. Most importantly, I allow the cells to dry out until the seedlings start to wilt (I try not to do this too often) out of fear of watering too soon. What else can be done?

[zeuspaul]

I reuse my old pots and don't sterilize anything. I reuse old potting soil. I run it through a sieve to remove larger chunks. I refresh with some worm castings and some blood and bone meal and crushed egg shells. Also some spent tea leaves. I water from the top with a squirt bottle. I rarely get damping off.

In the past I have had problems with damping off. It was due to cold and damp conditions. When I left the seedlings outdoors over night I had damping off due to cold damp nights.

I try to ensure my seedling mix is well drained. I sift perlite and add it to the starting mix. I used Autozone Floor Dry DE in the past and prefer it to perlite. However perlite is cheaper and I can have a large bag delivered from Home Depot.

I expose my seedlings to sunlight almost every day depending on weather conditions. I believe the sun UV has a sterilizing affect.

If using utility water PH can be found at the utility website.

[JimmyNardello]

I reuse my old pots and don't sterilize anything. I reuse old potting soil. I run it through a sieve to remove larger chunks. I refresh with some worm castings and some blood and bone meal and crushed egg shells. Also some spent tea leaves. I water from the top with a squirt bottle. I rarely get damping off.

In the past I have had problems with damping off. It was due to cold and damp conditions. When I left the seedlings outdoors over night I had damping off due to cold damp nights.

I try to ensure my seedling mix is well drained. I sift perlite and add it to the starting mix. I used Autozone Floor Dry DE in the past and prefer it to perlite. However perlite is cheaper and I can have a large bag delivered from Home Depot.

I expose my seedlings to sunlight almost every day depending on weather conditions. I believe the sun UV has a sterilizing affect.

If using utility water PH can be found at the utility website.

This could possibly be my issue, but it doesn't look like damping off to me. I've also had a tomato or two recover from this not once, but twice. I think that's pushing it for something as sinister and deadly a pathogen as damping off. But again, that's only two cases where they've recovered. I could be wrong, and it may very well be the culprit here.

Just odd that it's taken so long to materialize when it's something that, generally speaking, impacts young seedlings. This has only happened when they've started developing their first sets of true leaves, and the watering regiment has been the same since. Why would it only take hold now, and not when they're young and much more vulnerable to disease? It was also much, much colder at that point in time.

[JRinPA]

The above picture is exactly what dampening off looks like on week old seedlings. Looks like a beaver gnawed on it. The top looks fine, but it falls over. Usually 1/8 to 1/4" above the soil. I just had a couple eggplant dampen off when I bottom watered, didn't think it was enough, then top watered to make sure it was enough . Timber!!

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So I would not think that the problem JimmyNardello is having is D.O.

My water is pretty hard, two weeks and the tea kettle needs a cup of water and 2tbsp of vinegar boiled in it for cleaning. I never thought hard water hurt seedlings though?

[Seven Bends]

I read through last year's thread and this year's, and it looks like the same problems to me: over-watering and ideal conditions for damping-off pathogens to thrive.

The ideal conditions for damping off are cool and wet. What are your conditions? "Sub 50-55" temperatures and wet soil. I know you say you're watering less, but the soil looks saturated in all of the pictures except the first one in this thread. The burnt leaf tips can be signs of over-watering. It won't necessarily work to allow the plants to dry out after over-watering -- you need to not over-water in the first place. You said you watered every day after planting (before emergence), in a cold room, without a heat mat -- it shouldn't have been necessary to water that often in those conditions. At most you might have needed to give the soil surface a small spritz from a spray bottle just to keep it slightly damp.

Bottom-watering can be difficult to do well. If you're going to bottom-water, be sure you don't let the containers sit in the water any longer than absolutely necessary. Before watering, pick up the containers to be sure they're somewhat light. You can't tell just by looking at the soil surface, which will dry out before the interior soil does. Water less than you think you need to, and don't water every day until the plants are big. But don't do a feast/famine thing where you're saturating them and then parching them.

You need to increase the heat in your growing area. Sub 50-55 temps are too low for tomatoes and peppers. It will cause the seedlings to grow too slowly, and anything that slows down seeding growth increases their susceptibility to damping off. Get a space heater, or move your seedlings to a warmer room. If it's humid/damp in your growing area, especially if you have any mildew-type issues, use a different room. If possible, put your plant shelves/lights in a room that also gets some natural light and fresh air. If you're using a basement, try somewhere else higher up in the home.

Last year I suggested that you get some Dixie-type small plastic cups (the 3-oz size) to start your seeds in. I still recommend that. (Obviously, you have to drill or poke holes in the bottom.) This will ensure the containers are free of fungus and disease when you plant, and their small size and individual nature will allow you to control the watering and easily test whether each plant needs water by picking up the cup. I also recommended making a greenhouse out of a clear plastic box, so you could put your seedlings outside much sooner to get them some sunshine and warmth.

Be careful with the various substances you're using to sterilize or ward off pathogens. Have you used anything other than cinnamon and isopropyl alcohol?

Hard water usually means lots of calcium and magnesium, which shouldn't be harmful to your plants. There could be something else going on with your tap water, of course, but I think your issue probably is just too much water, not the quality thereof.

[JimmyNardello]

I read through last year's thread and this year's, and it looks like the same problems to me: over-watering and ideal conditions for damping-off pathogens to thrive.

The ideal conditions for damping off are cool and wet. What are your conditions? "Sub 50-55" temperatures and wet soil. I know you say you're watering less, but the soil looks saturated in all of the pictures except the first one in this thread. The burnt leaf tips can be signs of over-watering. It won't necessarily work to allow the plants to dry out after over-watering -- you need to not over-water in the first place. You said you watered every day after planting (before emergence), in a cold room, without a heat mat -- it shouldn't have been necessary to water that often in those conditions. At most you might have needed to give the soil surface a small spritz from a spray bottle just to keep it slightly damp.

Bottom-watering can be difficult to do well. If you're going to bottom-water, be sure you don't let the containers sit in the water any longer than absolutely necessary. Before watering, pick up the containers to be sure they're somewhat light. You can't tell just by looking at the soil surface, which will dry out before the interior soil does. Water less than you think you need to, and don't water every day until the plants are big. But don't do a feast/famine thing where you're saturating them and then parching them.

You need to increase the heat in your growing area. Sub 50-55 temps are too low for tomatoes and peppers. It will cause the seedlings to grow too slowly, and anything that slows down seeding growth increases their susceptibility to damping off. Get a space heater, or move your seedlings to a warmer room. If it's humid/damp in your growing area, especially if you have any mildew-type issues, use a different room. If possible, put your plant shelves/lights in a room that also gets some natural light and fresh air. If you're using a basement, try somewhere else higher up in the home.

Last year I suggested that you get some Dixie-type small plastic cups (the 3-oz size) to start your seeds in. I still recommend that. (Obviously, you have to drill or poke holes in the bottom.) This will ensure the containers are free of fungus and disease when you plant, and their small size and individual nature will allow you to control the watering and easily test whether each plant needs water by picking up the cup. I also recommended making a greenhouse out of a clear plastic box, so you could put your seedlings outside much sooner to get them some sunshine and warmth.

Be careful with the various substances you're using to sterilize or ward off pathogens. Have you used anything other than cinnamon and isopropyl alcohol?

Hard water usually means lots of calcium and magnesium, which shouldn't be harmful to your plants. There could be something else going on with your tap water, of course, but I think your issue probably is just too much water, not the quality thereof.

I think I was a little too vague when I said they were watered every day. I was mainly referring to that pre-germination stage.

With the fans on consistently & a good amount of sunlight in addition to the grow lights, they were drying out pretty quickly to about 2 or 3 inches down every day or so. Because of this, I figured it was best to keep them somewhat moist for the best germination, and so I gave each cell a light watering when it was clear they were drying out further down. I usually checked with my finger prior to doing this. So is it possible these issues were fostering much further down and thriving in those colder conditions? If so, would that explain why it began effecting the seedlings later on as their roots developed into that soggy soil further down?

Even then, after they germinated, I started waiting much longer to water them. I'd say 2 or 3 days, at least. I also made a habit of digging down and physically checking for moisture, and only then did I consider bottom watering. When I did bottom water, I usually waited until the water wicked to the soil surface, and then immediately removed them from the water. They were never left to sit for more than 10 or 20 minutes.

I thought about using cups like the ones you mentioned, but I got a pretty good deal on these larger cells, so I figured I'd just go with them.

I plan on starting new seeds in a greenhouse once I set up the heating system (literally just a black barrel w/ water for thermal mass). Just waiting for other supplies to arrive.

Also, no - nothing other than 70% isopropyl alcohol & ceylon cinnamon.

As for the water, it's probably more likely that this is a result of damp conditions & cold weather, as others have mentioned. It just genuinely didn't seem like that's what it was when looking at the seedlings, and the fact that they were thriving for as long as they were under said conditions.

Going forward, I'll try to start the majority of them in the greenhouse once I set everything up. The faster transpiration should more than likely solve this for me, as I've seen in the past when I put them outside. The only downside to that is unpredictable weather, but with a greenhouse now, that should solve this issue as well until things warm up.

[PNW_D]

OK ..... just a strange thought ....... but try a google search!!
Glyphosate in Organic Cinnamon

[JRinPA]

10 minutes or more sitting in water is a tremendous amount of time for little plants. I bottom water for like 10 seconds at this stage. Then another 10 seconds if it still feels light. My current mix this year is acting a little different without peat, so that 10 seconds is not taking on the same amount of water weight that it does with 50% peat.

[JimmyNardello]

10 minutes or more sitting in water is a tremendous amount of time for little plants. I bottom water for like 10 seconds at this stage. Then another 10 seconds if it still feels light. My current mix this year is acting a little different without peat, so that 10 seconds is not taking on the same amount of water weight that it does with 50% peat.

The cells have pretty small drainage holes, so it takes a while for the water to actually wick up. I immediately remove them when it wicks to the top, and of course check the weight prior to bottom watering at all. What I meant was that I don't leave them sitting in a pool of water for an extended period of time.

[Ginger2778]

FWIW the top and bottom seedlings look like damping off to me.
The stem or root is 'pinched' in one place, that's the rot. JMO.

That's what I see too. Also, I keep my fan on 24/7. Only the lights get turned off at night. And I don't bottom water, I add water with a spray bottle, to just the base of the stem at the soil line. I never get damping off. You don't use a dome do you? I also suspect the cinnamon. And lastly, I start mine in moist paper towels in a zip lock sandwich bag until I see a root tip, then transfer into straight promix BX, no jiffy or extra perlite. I grow about 1500 tomato seedlings every year, no issues at all.
I think leaving the fan on 24/7 , on low, is going to be a huge help for you.

[MissS]

10 minutes or more sitting in water is a tremendous amount of time for little plants. I bottom water for like 10 seconds at this stage. Then another 10 seconds if it still feels light. My current mix this year is acting a little different without peat, so that 10 seconds is not taking on the same amount of water weight that it does with 50% peat.

The cells have pretty small drainage holes, so it takes a while for the water to actually wick up. I immediately remove them when it wicks to the top, and of course check the weight prior to bottom watering at all. What I meant was that I don't leave them sitting in a pool of water for an extended period of time.

10 seconds is good. You don't want the water saturating the soil all the way up to the top. It just gets too wet and the bottom is soaked at that point. The soil only needs to be slightly damp, not wet. In most of your pics, the top of the soil appears to be very wet. It's far better to water lightly twice a day than it is to soak them once a day.

[pepperhead212]

OK ..... just a strange thought ....... but try a google search!!
Glyphosate in Organic Cinnamon

And not only glyphosate, but other toxins being found in cinnamon, like lead, found in some recalled foods that were mostly children's food, and they figured out that it was from the cinnamon. Probably another good reason not to put it in the soil.

[Kurt]

Along with the cinnamon issue seems like some more drainage in the squares is needed.Roots need aeration also.Once the fancy soil starters get soaked they seem to turn into mud.I use the deep trays,they have channels in the cones.When I do overwater and maybe too wet,we put some doggie peed pads underneath to suck up the overage.

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[JimmyNardello]

Based on most of the replies, the issue probably is just a combination of over saturation & damping off as a result. I've always had good results by allowing water to wick to the top after bottom watering, but only when doing so outside. I assume that's because of faster transpiration & the sun preventing much, if any, fungal growth.

Addressing the cinnamon concerns, the cinnamon I've been using was purchased about 3 years ago (roughly within its shelf life) before many of these reports were coming out. I use Anthony's Organic Ceylon Cinnamon. I doubt this is the result of contamination.

I'll try to water differently this time around. I just don't have enough time in the day to water them from above or give them a small bottom watering, so it was easier to allow the water to wick all the way to the top. As I said, they also dry out quite quickly. But this is likely an issue of water remaining at the bottom of the cells - as a result of those very small drainage holes I mentioned.

I like Kurt's idea. I might try that as well.

[JimmyNardello]

FWIW the top and bottom seedlings look like damping off to me.
The stem or root is 'pinched' in one place, that's the rot. JMO.

Also, I keep my fan on 24/7. You don't use a dome do you? I also suspect the cinnamon.

I addressed the cinnamon in my last post, and I do not use a dome. Never have. I also keep the fans on all day, but I've begun leaving them on at night as well. I believe, like many of you have mentioned, that this is probably just a clear cut case of damping off.

Just disappointed that I was seemingly doing everything right and it still took hold. I've always read and been told that allowing the water to wick to the top was a good practice (and have experienced its benefits - albeit in an outside environment), but I think my main issue with this is that I live in a cold climate - so that water becomes not only moist, but moist and cold.

[zeuspaul]

My money is on the seed starting mix...too much peat and temps. You shouldn't have to worry about too much water and watering techniques if the mix is well drained and has a lot of porosity. Mosser Lee No Damp Off as previously recommended would be better than peat based Promix and peat based Jiffy. I have used it in the past but had a few issues with the long fibers blocking some seeds from arising.

I water once or twice or three times a day from the top. If I see the surface drying out they get a squirt of water. Out of about 100 starts so far only one has fallen over. The rest look strong and healthy. My mix is primarily sifted unsterilized recycled potting mix primarily bark fines and perlite, DE, blood, bone, worm castings, a small amount of peat and some granular Kellogg Garden Organics Tomato, Vegetable & Herbs Fertilizer. No fans but plenty of light including mid day sun. Temps always 60°F or above, dry climate.

[WoodSprite]

The grow lights use LEDs. These are the ones - https://www.walmart.com/ip/BoostGro-3FT ... /393302318

If I saw that on my plants, I’d think they were getting too much or too strong light. I’d dim my grow lights or raise them higher.

They're pretty high up as is - about a foot or two from the seedlings. They seem to be happy with that.

My husband bought me new grow lights last year. The instructions on them say they should be at 50% power and 24-30" above soil for seed germination. For seedling stage, mine should be 50-75% power and 16-24" above the top of the seedlings. Both heights are a lot higher than I'm use to with my old set up. So you may want to double-check the instructions on the brand and model of lights that you are using.

[Shule]

While I don't think you're dealing with damping off, either, it's important to know that damping off isn't caused by only one kind of pathogen. So, it's not always the same in the way it manifests. For instance, if Verticillium is causing damping off, it's probably going to look a lot different than if Pythium is causing it. I don't think Verticillium would attack the base of the stem (it's a vascular disease that can make the whole plant wilt; also, it can affect the leaf edges, too, making them yellow in parts, without causing wilt).

Here are some possibilities:
- Mites
- Herbicide in your soil/water
- Disease (although I don't think it's damping off, I still think Verticillium is a possibility here; it can make young plants look scorched, and it makes them more prone to drought damage; if Verticillium is the case, then fertilizer would probably actually help rather than hurt; Verticillium prevents plants from getting needed nutrients, and fertilization is one of the primary ways to combat it if you're not going to pull up the plant; it's most effective on plants that only have foliar symptoms, however; if they have stem wilting symptoms, you should probably pull them up; Verticillium has a complicated life-cycle, and it can be a problem at all levels of moisture, while seeming to respond to changes in it at the same time; other diseases are possible, even viruses).
- Less than ideal soil

Maybe try watering with filtered or borrowed water, and see what happens. Getting your water tested is something I would recommend.