Tomato seedlings dying off

[JimmyNardello]

Been a while since I've posted on this site. Despite a rocky year last year, as I explain in this post - viewtopic.php?p=97886#p97886 - I had a very successful harvest of tomatoes last year. But I wanted to do something different this year to prevent the same issues from occurring. I did several things to ensure this;

- Provided adequate lighting conditions using grow lights, which are neither too far nor too close to the seedlings. I had issues with sunburn because of this last year, so I gave them plenty of room (can't remember the name of the lights ATM.)

- Provided new, sterile seedling mix (mix of Promix, Jiffy & some added perlite) & ensured the mix was only slightly damp before starting seeds.

- Seeds were started in completely new cells. The cells are 2 1/2'' W x 2 1/4" L and 3" deep.

- Seeds were watered about once a day, lightly, until somewhat damp (if it was evident they were drying out at the surface.)

- Once emerged, seedlings were exclusively bottom watered. Fans were then started. (Simple USB fans.)

- ???

The seedlings were all doing extremely well. Deep green, stocky, and responding well to constant wind pressure. I kept the fans on all day & turned them off at night. So they're on for about 13-14 hours a day - same as the lights

Not long after this initial success, problems started to arise. I lost an Evil Olive first. By the time I noticed, it had already wilted and fallen over. Checking its roots, I noticed nothing out of the ordinary. Just healthy, white roots. No signs of damping off or suffocation that I could tell.

After this, things went fairly smoothly. The rest of the seedlings were all above board and growing. Then it started happening to more of them. They'd wilt and fall over. One of them did this early enough for me to catch it early, and thinking it was over-watering, I quickly put it in the direct path of the fan. There, it dried out quickly and recovered about a day later.

I also began noticing this odd pattern of the seedlings wilting at the very tips of their cotyledons, but most of them shrugged this off and continued growing normally. However, more and more of them began wilting, falling over, and dying. It was basically a repeat of last year, except the circumstances are even more strange now.

- I wait until the surface dries, and then another day after this to bottom water them.
- The lights don't seem to be a factor in this at all. No signs of sunburn or any significant legginess of seedlings.
- The soil is new. The cell packs are also new.
- These seedlings are in a completely different room this year, on a shelf, next to a south-facing window. So they actually get supplemental light from the sun in the morning, which helps dry them out even faster than the fans do.
- Unlike last year, there is zero surface fungal growth.

Here's some progression photos. The brown stuff is all ceylon cinnamon. Also, to note; I only have one picture of a seedling's roots ATM. The one shown in the picture was rotting for at least a couple hours before I got to it.

I'll wait until more drop (which they will) to grab some more revealing pictures of the roots. Maybe that can help diagnose this better.

The beginning:





Where the problems started:









I'm kind of lost. I really don't know what this is or what I'm doing wrong, but I'd hate to start another batch only for the same issues to occur over and over again. I'm lucky I managed to grow tomatoes last year & save a lot of seeds, but whatever is going on here is very discouraging.

Could the soil be holding onto water too long because of the slightly larger cells? Could they be taking up too much water when bottom watered? Is this damping off or some other fungal issue? I have no idea.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Seven Bends]

Whenever I see cotyledon tip browing, I think "burn." Usually in seedlings it's because of over-fertilization, or fertilizing too soon. You didn't mention using any fertilizer. Did your seedling mix components contain any fertilizer, or did you water with a liquid fertilizer? Young seedlings don't need any added fertilizer, and it's easy to harm them with it.

In your case, I'm wondering if the cinnamon could be the issue. Cinnamon can be phytotoxic, meaning "kills plants." Researchers are exploring its use not just as a fungicide/bactericide/nematicide, but also as a possible herbicide. Is it possible the young seedlings couldn't handle the cinnamon on the soil? I would remove a few of the plants from the cinnamon-dusted soil, rinse the roots gently, and repot them in the Pro-Mix with no added fertilizer and no cinnamon to see if that solves the problem. Or just plant some new seeds in Pro-Mix and/or Jiffy without any fertilizer or cinnamon.

Did you add or apply anything else to the soil or plants, other than the cinnamon?

Damping off is pretty obvious in its presentation - shriveling/decay of the stem near the soil surface, decaying/stunting of roots, sometimes visible fungal growth. I don't see those symptoms in your plants, and your description of healthy, white roots doesn't fit damping off. What I'm seeing is some leaf curling/twisting/malformation and burn.

[PNW_D]

could be "Crud" ....... notes quoted from NCTomatoman 2007

"Not foliage disease - it is a genetic trait for certain varieties to show leaf edge necrosis. Even when I started them in Pennsylvania, certain varieties show it every year. It shows itself as foliage problems, but I don't believe it to be a disease - but something physiological, brought about by a particular genetic trait of the variety afflicted.

However, getting them into the sun and quickly transplanting them did the trick, and the seedlings of each look great)"

Certain varieties seemed to be more affected ......

[Labradors]

Could it be your water? Do you have a softener? I had problems one year when my softener was playing up. Luckily, I spotted crystals on the potting mix in time to re-pot and save them.

[MissS]

Larger cells do hold more water. Which could be contributing to the problem.

I myself do not worry about the cotyledons too much. These are not necessary once the plant has it's first true leaves. I will say that yours look very different from what I have seen on mine before. They appear to almost be burnt. This could be from lights or moisture on the leaves while under bright lights. It could also be over-fertilization.

I'm going to go under the assumption that this is just normal damping off disease. I would leave your fan on them 24/7. I would also water even less often than you are doing now. I'm thinking that the bottom of those cells are pretty water logged and need to dry out. Keep an eye on them and only water when they seem to need it or when the cells weight feels like nothing when you lift one up.

I used to get damping off every year. I now do things very differently. If you can, add some mycorrhizae to your cells. It really seems to help ward off this disease.

[PoisonApple]

I’ve never done anything with the ceylon cinnamon, so no idea how that may factor or not, but you could try a control set of seedlings that don’t use it and see if there is a difference. How certain are you that the light is the right spectrum? Are they LED, fluorescent or…?

[WoodSprite]

If I saw that on my plants, I’d think they were getting too much or too strong light. I’d dim my grow lights or raise them higher.

[bower]

Another possibility: since the funk is starting right at the tips of your cotyledons where they were in contact with the seed coat itself, it could be that this is some disease on the seed coat. Sanitizing the seed before planting might help.
Meanwhile, if this is developing beyond the cotyledons and harming the plants, you should pinch off the bad bits as soon as they appear to reduce the risk of spreading to your true leaves.

[JimmyNardello]

Whenever I see cotyledon tip browing, I think "burn." Usually in seedlings it's because of over-fertilization, or fertilizing too soon. You didn't mention using any fertilizer. Did your seedling mix components contain any fertilizer, or did you water with a liquid fertilizer? Young seedlings don't need any added fertilizer, and it's easy to harm them with it.

In your case, I'm wondering if the cinnamon could be the issue. Cinnamon can be phytotoxic, meaning "kills plants." Researchers are exploring its use not just as a fungicide/bactericide/nematicide, but also as a possible herbicide. Is it possible the young seedlings couldn't handle the cinnamon on the soil? I would remove a few of the plants from the cinnamon-dusted soil, rinse the roots gently, and repot them in the Pro-Mix with no added fertilizer and no cinnamon to see if that solves the problem. Or just plant some new seeds in Pro-Mix and/or Jiffy without any fertilizer or cinnamon.

Did you add or apply anything else to the soil or plants, other than the cinnamon?

Damping off is pretty obvious in its presentation - shriveling/decay of the stem near the soil surface, decaying/stunting of roots, sometimes visible fungal growth. I don't see those symptoms in your plants, and your description of healthy, white roots doesn't fit damping off. What I'm seeing is some leaf curling/twisting/malformation and burn.

Prior to yesterday, none of them received any fertilizer or anything else. I actually only started fertilizing the seedlings with nearly developed true leaves yesterday, but these problems were evident before I even began doing this. As for cinnamon possibly being a factor, I plan on starting new seeds w/o cinnamon to see if this has any impact. I'll also be starting some outside shortly if the weather holds. I do have a greenhouse at the moment, but it's very small and doesn't hold heat as well - so I'm trying to figure out how to solve that problem before I start heat-loving seeds in there.

could be "Crud" ....... notes quoted from NCTomatoman 2007

"Not foliage disease - it is a genetic trait for certain varieties to show leaf edge necrosis. Even when I started them in Pennsylvania, certain varieties show it every year. It shows itself as foliage problems, but I don't believe it to be a disease - but something physiological, brought about by a particular genetic trait of the variety afflicted.

However, getting them into the sun and quickly transplanting them did the trick, and the seedlings of each look great)"

Certain varieties seemed to be more affected ......

I'll read on this more, but I don't think this is it. Whatever it is, it seems to be something sinister, because it's now spreading to the peppers & other seedlings. I'm not convinced it's damping off, either - I let the cells completely dry out, to the point of them becoming slightly dehydrated, before bottom watering. That alone isn't a very good environment for fungal diseases like damping off, from what I understand. I'll definitely be trying to start some outside, however. That seems to always fix these problems, but I never have enough time in the year to see them grow fruit when I take that route.

Could it be your water? Do you have a softener? I had problems one year when my softener was playing up. Luckily, I spotted crystals on the potting mix in time to re-pot and save them.

This is actually a very compelling question that I've been asking myself lately. I don't just have hard water - I have extremely hard water, and the seedlings seem to do very well... until I water them. Some recover from this, and some have recovered several times, but it seems like they only become upset after I water them.

What exactly is going on if this is the case? Can they not handle the buildup, or is there something else in my water? Also, why would they hold on for so long before showing any symptoms? Is it something that take time to build up in the vascular system of the seedling, and then slowly kills it? I haven't done enough research on hard water and seedlings to know the answer to that.

Larger cells do hold more water. Which could be contributing to the problem.

I myself do not worry about the cotyledons too much. These are not necessary once the plant has it's first true leaves. I will say that yours look very different from what I have seen on mine before. They appear to almost be burnt. This could be from lights or moisture on the leaves while under bright lights. It could also be over-fertilization.

I'm going to go under the assumption that this is just normal damping off disease. I would leave your fan on them 24/7. I would also water even less often than you are doing now. I'm thinking that the bottom of those cells are pretty water logged and need to dry out. Keep an eye on them and only water when they seem to need it or when the cells weight feels like nothing when you lift one up.

I used to get damping off every year. I now do things very differently. If you can, add some mycorrhizae to your cells. It really seems to help ward off this disease.

If I watered them less often than I do now, I think they'd just shrivel up and die, regardless. Which is what's strange about this whole thing, because I don't see damping off thriving in an environment like that. Fertilizer also isn't an issue, and the lights are about a foot or two above the plants - which they've been happy with since they came up. I'll definitely try adding some mycorrhizae, though.

What do you personally do with your seedlings? It seems like I'm doing everything right and yet still having problems, so I'm not sure where to go from here.

I’ve never done anything with the ceylon cinnamon, so no idea how that may factor or not, but you could try a control set of seedlings that don’t use it and see if there is a difference. How certain are you that the light is the right spectrum? Are they LED, fluorescent or…?

I'll be putting aside a set of seedlings that don't have cinnamon shortly.

The grow lights use LEDs. These are the ones - https://www.walmart.com/ip/BoostGro-3FT ... /393302318

If I saw that on my plants, I’d think they were getting too much or too strong light. I’d dim my grow lights or raise them higher.

They're pretty high up as is - about a foot or two from the seedlings. They seem to be happy with that.

Another possibility: since the funk is starting right at the tips of your cotyledons where they were in contact with the seed coat itself, it could be that this is some disease on the seed coat. Sanitizing the seed before planting might help.
Meanwhile, if this is developing beyond the cotyledons and harming the plants, you should pinch off the bad bits as soon as they appear to reduce the risk of spreading to your true leaves.

Definitely possible, but I doubt this is the case when they seem to all be impacted. My peppers and other seedlings are also showing symptoms of some sort of stress. I really do wonder if this has anything to do with my very, very hard water.

[AKgardener]

I hope you figure it out I have well water to but I tested mine at it’s right where it should be except for that I do need to add a water softener in.. best of luck

[bower]

WRT all being affected - could be airborne spores, but that would not explain why it strikes cotyledons first. So you may be right about the water. What is the pH of your water, because this can affect access to nutrients.

A word about cinnamon: I've been reading up on seed treatment experiments, and learned that while cinnamon and cloves are strongly antifungal, they also strongly inhibited germination when seeds were treated before sowing.
I haven't read about it being a growth inhibitor for mature plants, so IDK, I thought it should be okay for sprinkling on soil. It is also high in salicylates and that should stimulate plant immune responses positively. I have not seen any bad reactions in mature tomato plants but haven't used on seedlings.
I'm experimenting with cinnamon as a spore discouraging treatment for surfaces in my seed starting area. Specifically the bottom of the window glass, the seals are where moisture accumulates and over time spores will germinate there. I treated those areas after fall cleanup with a heavy sprinkling of ground cinnamon and have left it over winter. I'm pretty pleased with the results, and don't personally mind it lying around although some better housekeepers might go nuts. It smelled festive for the first couple weeks and I liked that too.

[rdback]

@JimmyNardello After reading your initial post, my first thought was "it's the water". I'd buy a gallon of spring water and use that for your next watering(s), and see if that makes a difference. If so then you can figure out how to address your water issue. It might be as simple as using a Brita type filter.

Good luck. I hope you can solve this mystery.

[MissS]

@JimmyNardello after several years of dealing with damping off and trying everything to prevent it, I have finally got my routine down to where I have not had it anymore.

I use sterile seed cells and line the bottom with a piece of coffee filter. My mix is a mix of worm castings and granulated diatomaceous earth (from AutoZone) on the bottom sprinkled with Endomycorrhizal species myco's. On top I use a product for seed starting called 'No Damp Off' mixed with DE and myco's. The worm castings add some nutrients and bacteria. The DE is moisture retentive but also dries out quite rapidly to add some air to the mixture. The No Damp Off is quite good at preventing this disease.

I have used MycoGrow for years. It is unavailable this year so I will be using Great White for the first time. It has a good reputation. You can find the No Damp Off here, http://mosserlee.staging.tsts.com/produ ... edium.aspx It is quite affordable.

[JimmyNardello]

WRT all being affected - could be airborne spores, but that would not explain why it strikes cotyledons first. So you may be right about the water. What is the pH of your water, because this can affect access to nutrients.

A word about cinnamon: I've been reading up on seed treatment experiments, and learned that while cinnamon and cloves are strongly antifungal, they also strongly inhibited germination when seeds were treated before sowing.
I haven't read about it being a growth inhibitor for mature plants, so IDK, I thought it should be okay for sprinkling on soil. It is also high in salicylates and that should stimulate plant immune responses positively. I have not seen any bad reactions in mature tomato plants but haven't used on seedlings.
I'm experimenting with cinnamon as a spore discouraging treatment for surfaces in my seed starting area. Specifically the bottom of the window glass, the seals are where moisture accumulates and over time spores will germinate there. I treated those areas after fall cleanup with a heavy sprinkling of ground cinnamon and have left it over winter. I'm pretty pleased with the results, and don't personally mind it lying around although some better housekeepers might go nuts. It smelled festive for the first couple weeks and I liked that too.

Actually, they germinated faster than any tomato seedlings I've ever grown. I think it was about 4 or 5 days after sowing, which is insane when I also consider that they were started in sub 50-55f temps without a heat mat or humidity dome. Only recently has it warmed to around 60-65.

I highly suspect it's the water, because it seems to have struck them all at roughly the same point in time. Maybe this is indicative of some sort of buildup that they can no longer handle, but I can't quantify this in any meaningful way other than the fact that there's mineral buildup on just about everything my tap water comes into contact with - faucets, coffee makers, pots & pans, etc. Very hard water.

I'll try to get a PH test soon.

@JimmyNardello After reading your initial post, my first thought was "it's the water". I'd buy a gallon of spring water and use that for your next watering(s), and see if that makes a difference. If so then you can figure out how to address your water issue. It might be as simple as using a Brita type filter.

Good luck. I hope you can solve this mystery.

I'll see about doing this as well. It may very well be my water.

@JimmyNardello after several years of dealing with damping off and trying everything to prevent it, I have finally got my routine down to where I have not had it anymore.

I use sterile seed cells and line the bottom with a piece of coffee filter. My mix is a mix of worm castings and granulated diatomaceous earth (from AutoZone) on the bottom sprinkled with Endomycorrhizal species myco's. On top I use a product for seed starting called 'No Damp Off' mixed with DE and myco's. The worm castings add some nutrients and bacteria. The DE is moisture retentive but also dries out quite rapidly to add some air to the mixture. The No Damp Off is quite good at preventing this disease.

I have used MycoGrow for years. It is unavailable this year so I will be using Great White for the first time. It has a good reputation. You can find the No Damp Off here, http://mosserlee.staging.tsts.com/produ ... edium.aspx It is quite affordable.

I appreciate the recommendations. I still haven't completely ruled out damping off, but I just recently pulled up some nearly dead seedlings and looked at the roots. They seem very healthy to me, which is perplexing.

[bower]

FWIW the top and bottom seedlings look like damping off to me.
The stem or root is 'pinched' in one place, that's the rot. JMO.

[MissS]

Damping off is not a disease of the roots. It appears on the stem at or just above the soil line as a thinning/depressed brown area such as shown in the above and below images.

image.png

image.png

[Labradors]

Here's a thought. Could it be your watering can? Did you have something in it before that could have killed your seedlings?

[ddsack]

While I can't say for sure that hard water is not the cause in your case, I can say that I have very hard well water and it has never affected my seedling trays or my garden plants. Our main problem is iron, which even with a pre-softener filter will leave rust stains on bathroom fixtures, but hard lime deposits are there too. I use house water that comes through the water softener for initially starting seeds because that's what I have available indoors for early seeding, but as soon as I move them to my greenhouse after they sprout, I use water through the hose, which is well water. Certainly all well water is not the same, my son lives a 10 minute drive from me, he has excellent tasting well water, and does not need a water softener.

Plants grow and thrive in a variety of soil types though they may prefer neutral or acid soils. Growing in a less than ideal type should not kill them, I assume they will take up what natural nutrients or minerals are useful to them and ignore the overload ones, unless it is actually something toxic. It seems like hard minerals in water could possibly slow them down, but should not kill them. Most of my flower seeds, broccoli, cabbage, herbs, cucumbers, melons, squash etc, (everything but tomatoes, peppers, eggplant) are started in, and only receive my hard well water with no problems whatsoever.

[JimmyNardello]

Here's a thought. Could it be your watering can? Did you have something in it before that could have killed your seedlings?

I started watering them from above with new, unopened water bottles just before they emerged. After that, I only bottom watered them using the lid of a crate that was doused in 70% alcohol beforehand and left to dry for a bit before use.

Damping off is not a disease of the roots. It appears on the stem at or just above the soil line as a thinning/depressed brown area such as shown in the above and below images.

image.png

image.png

I think I misspoke when I said this, but what I meant was that both the roots and the point at which they meet the soil (which is what I assume the pinch point to be) seem to be OK. They're also not falling over and dying - they're slowly wilting, dropping their leaves, and then dying.

FWIW the top and bottom seedlings look like damping off to me.
The stem or root is 'pinched' in one place, that's the rot. JMO.

I'm just very confused, because like I said, I've always assumed that "pinched" area to be the point where the stem and roots meet. I've seen this on healthy, vigorous seedlings that I've accidentally uprooted before. The majority of the seedlings I've lost don't simply keel over and die - indicative of damping off. They simply wilt over time, lose their leaves, and eventually fall over.

[JimmyNardello]

Another thing to note: I've had seedlings do this and recover, and I don't believe they usually do recover from damping off.